this is completely insane. I'm having trouble believing this actually exists.

What time will we be rallying???

we'll be rallying during the event, from 11am-2pm. please come to help us peacefully protest!

Please show up, please do. That is all those living around Washington Square Park need are roving bands of lunatics, fighting it out amongst themselves. Sort of like something out of the opening scene of "Gangs of New York." As if Washington Square never saw that before. Sure beats the drug dealers.

Oh little wingnuts, why limit yourself to Washington Square. There aren't a lot of illegals there.

Why not go to Greenpoint, the Bronx or a few places in New Jersey? There are plenty of big tough looking East European gangsta types in all three places, some of whom may even be illegals.

Knock yourself out guys. You might even wind up getting your little yuppie prick asses kicked by the big strong white man of your dreams. Don't pick on the Mexicans. You might want to hire some of them in the future to babysit your precious little neocon spawn in a few years.

"please come to help us peacefully protest!"

I'm always astonished at how much it needs to be constantly beaten into people's heads that we're going to have a "peaceful non-violent protest." What's ironic is that nothing violent (at least from the people's side) has happened in NYC in a loonnnnnnnnngggg time. Yet the verbal re-enforcement needs to be made, to keep things from "getting out of hand."

God forbid these asshole racists were actually violently confronted. Don't you think they deserve it? THEY certainly have no problem with racist violence against immigrants, especially at the border. Why shouldn't we speak to them in the only language they understand?

That said, I highly don't any confrontation will actually happen at this event, but what if it did? Would the anti-racist activist be demonized for "sinking to their level?" This is bullshit and you know it.

Was wondering if any in the city is planning to attend might have a videocamera at hand. I'd be very interested to see what happens and it would be a great resource for the public!!
If anyone feels like sharing please let me know

"God forbid these asshole racists were actually violently confronted. Don't you think they deserve it? THEY certainly have no problem with racist violence against immigrants, especially at the border."

There is yet any evidence that the people doing this are in fact racist.
As to a counter demo, there is not a jury in the land that would not say you were looking for a direct confrontation (with the possibility of violence) by your actions, despite declarations to the contrary.

If one honestly wanted peace one would be nowhere near that event.

"If one honestly wanted peace one would be nowhere near that event."

It never occurred to you that people may want peace for the immigrants these overprivilaged little goons are planning to harass.

In your world, it's all about you, right?

Not a right winger, let alone a typical one. Only pointing out the obvious, that any counter-demo increases the chances of an actual physical confrontation, a confrontation that the counter-demonstraters will be viewed as having started. Why not show some smarts and choose to ignore that event altogether?

"Why not show some smarts and choose to ignore that event altogether?"

Sounds like something someone PLANNING the NYU event would be telling us. And physical confrontation is a good thing, I see nothing wrong with dialectics between racists and anti-racists.

As to the false point that "we don't know they're racist," yes we do. Anyone having a "spot the immigrant game" of this nature is very clearly a racist, dividing people by the law, border, and physical appearance. The very most you could possibly do is argue that they are nationalist (Which also has a lot of racism associated with it), and I'm perfectly fine with nationalists along with racists being confronted and even injured. They come from the same disgusting spew that generates all forms of oppression. I completely agree with the above comment that these people support dispicable violence, whether through supporting state terror, violence against people of other races, gunning down people at the border. When you're dealing with scum of this caliber, why not give them a fucking taste of their own medicine (at least a little bit)?

People Against Inbred Fascist Dickhead Losers

Follow the link to see how some us dealt with them in Boston last year.

Humiliation is the name of the game. Numbers help too. Occupy the spot they want and prevent them from setting up shop.

The nazis were literally repelled when they tried to protest at the African Meeting House. A crowd of about 300 people charged in their direction and surrounded them. Pigs on horses rescued the nazis and whisked them away in a police truck. They were released at a safe subway station.

No "we" don't... though you may. Somebody is just aching to spend some time in jail.

Are you lunatics really advocating for a world without borders, my God,
you are crazier than I thought. Hey morons, why don't you try to make a difference in a place that really needs it like Syria or Palestine and see how long you survive.

If you are for illegal immigration, why don't you take a couple in your own house and take care of them. No public assistance though, OK. You spoiled rotton retards. It's so sad to see cowards like you guys protest when you don't have the guts, nor do the Mexicans, to change Mexico. Your such weak human beings.

Go face a violent threat and protest and see how quick the Mexican government or Al Queda cuts your throats. You are truly insane.

Are you lunatics really advocating for a world without borders, my God,
you are crazier than I thought. Hey morons, why don't you try to make a difference in a place that really needs it like Syria or Palestine and see how long you survive.

If you are for illegal immigration, why don't you take a couple in your own house and take care of them. No public assistance though, OK. You spoiled rotton retards. It's so sad to see cowards like you guys protest when you don't have the guts, nor do the Mexicans, to change Mexico. Your such weak human beings.

Go face a violent threat and protest and see how quick the Mexican government or Al Queda cuts your throats. You are truly insane.

Hope that everyone here is mature enough not to stoop to the level of these big babies.

Typical:

"Go face a violent threat and protest and see how quick the Mexican government or Al Queda cuts your throats. You are truly insane."

Typical right-wing projection of his own violent fantasies onto some anonymous brown skinned menace from the third world.

As for violence at the hands of the Mexican government, he must be new around here.

Too bad he can't tell the difference between the Mexican government and people who are oppressed by the Mexican government.

Very common for the authoritarian mind.

"Why not show some smarts and choose to ignore that event altogether?"

Maybe just reading this thread will keep you guys at home and spare some poor day laborer from getting hassled.

Hey, debate the immigration issue, lobby your congressman, write letters but don't harass some poor immigrant just trying to survive. That's just sick and evil.

Not scared.

So tell us, do your parents know how you waste their NYU tuition money. "Find the Immigrant" ... how utterly childish.

No one here is going to be baited by that infantile crap. We have more sense. Want some cheap publicity, why not bare it all and try streaking.
That seems to be more at your level.

It is insane, I can't believe it myself. People are actually calling the NYU Republicans racists... That is completely absurd. Stupid protesters... Oh well what are you gonna do.

Would I have know about this sooner, the "Hunt Idiot College Republican Shirts" would have been printed...

Amazing...

What makes one think that idiots are relegated to one wing of the corporate party or among those attending a university. The ranks of the idiotocracy are legion.

Ah, work keeps me from Washington Square Park today, but I did have a few thoughts to share.

These college republicans, so bend out of shape about immigration, can take a few easy steps to voice their concern.

1) Stop eating any food that "illegal" immigrants have picked, shipped, cooked or served.
In downtown Manhattan, that means they will stop eating at any restaurant. It also means that any food picked or raised inside the USA is also "illegal." To avoid eating food produced by "illegals" they should only eat imported food.

2) They should take a field trip to Washington Heights or Queens and approach people in Jackson Heights asking if they are legal. They should giggle while doing this.

For those who say to ignore this brownshirted cretins, you are out of your mind.

Washington Square Park is a meeting ground for the world, or at least to be before it became a playpen for NYU students. I was involved in a confrontation there many years back when around 20 skinheads held a rally around the fountain chanting "burn fags not flags" while beating anyone who criticized them in full view of the police. I eventually helped get a few dozen people to confront them just by standing up and rapping the crowd. (I also got hit with brass knuckles and, shockingly enough, arrested. No skinheads were arrested that day and it ended up being a minor scandal when one of the thugs bragged to the Daily News that the police gave them a free pass for the day.

If fascists show up in the park, chase them out. That's the only lesson.

-------

Here's the deal: these cretins don't want the immigrants deported. Heavens no, because then the entire economy would collapse. What they want is that these tens of millions of workers doing the worst and hardest chores be kept "illegal" so that they have no rights to organize, no rights to protet their conditions and are denied a legal voice to speak.

That's the situation.

In the meantime – I think every one of these little brownshirts who put their face up on FaceBook needs to have their visage printed out and posted around the NYU area. Explain what they've been a part of – and don't stop at putting them up once. These faces should be posted again and again until they are familiar to anyone who may want to talk with them about it.

In olden times the klan used to hide their face in shame for attacking immigrants, blacks and Jews. Now these little entitled scumbags think they can do this with impunity? Or play the victim when they get their karma?

Let them cry about how they can't hunt the human beings who cook their food.

Lets clarify things.

1. The "college republicans" are not exactly the klan.
2. Getting hit by brass knuckles, beaten up, or arrested by cops are not in the game plan of most.
3. There is a correlation between immigration and job availability (at a living wage) which the vast majority of the populace recognizes-- and most of them do not wear white hoods, have shaved heads or walk around with photos of Adolf Hitler in their pockets.
4. The transnational corporations want free and easy immigration, it keeps costs down.
5. If you think my wife and I are going to spend our old age forced to eat out of dumpsters because of the likes of you, the corporations or these weenies, YOU ARE crazy!

Hey, I grew up by the park, and have German antcestors who fought for Hitler. They were "good Germans" and "patriots" standing up to the "communists and jews – because Germany is for Germans."

American fascists don't wave pictures of Hitler.

They love Bush.

They don't dream of German supremacy, but American supremacy.

They don't demonize Jews, gypsies and communists, but Arabs, Mexicans and communists.

All I'm saying is that if one of these Republicans asks for my papers, they will get a very different response than a giggle.

"1. The "college republicans" are not exactly the klan."

OK. The College Republicans are no more the Klan than a 13 year old jerking off to a copy of Playboy is Hugh Hefner.

But what they are is a bridge to the klan, a group that pushes extremist ideas under the banner of political party which now has a lot more in common with Strom Thurmond and Theodor Bilbo and the Dixicrats than it does with Eisenhower or Lincoln.

"4. The transnational corporations want free and easy immigration, it keeps costs down"

No they don't. They want the free movement of capital and the highly restricted movement of labor.

"5. If you think my wife and I are going to spend our old age forced to eat out of dumpsters because of the likes of you, the corporations or these weenies, YOU ARE crazy!"

And of course hunting Mexicans in Washington Square Park while supporting a president trying to privatize social security is going to keep you well fed in your old age. Jeez. Your mommy and daddy are wasting that 35,000 dollars a year, aren't they?

Re 4: The transnationals want both, the free movement of both capital and labor-- when it is beneficial to them.

Re 5: We do not support Bush/Kerry or for that matter the whole rotten system. Nor do we approve of what the "college republicans" are doing.
However, the issue is not "Mexicans" it is low cost labor driving down wages. Your disconnect, like Bush's, is that you make light of the pain of the average working class citizen. A pain that both you and he hopefully will soon learn about first hand.

But keep up with the swarmy replies, it will only make it that much easier for us to do what we are going to do to both him and you, you corporate hack sonnofabitch.

Do our friends at NYU know the game they've invented is not all that new?
We've all read about how it goes at 3rd grade, by William Golding.
Our friends do not tell us, though, about the ritual they're gonna perform once they hunt them down...

Here's a documentary in preparation on the not-so-proud, indeed rather sad history of lynching in the states by Gode Davis. Free screenings on your computer... Please feel free to circulate.

 http://www.americanlynching.com/main.html

"Re 4: The transnationals want both, the free movement of both capital and labor-- when it is beneficial to them."

The only place big capital wants the free movement of labor is in your imagination. It's not the labor movement that's building that wall along the border.

It's not the labor movement that's contracting the detention of immigrants out to private corporations who are making huge profits off of it.

You're just a would be jailer with a whiny excuse.

But I'm not sure why you're so worried. You're mommy and daddy are giving you 35,000 dollars a year to go to college. It's not like you'll be picking strawberries or mopping floors for Walmart any time soon.

"We do not support Bush/Kerry or for that matter the whole rotten system."

You support the whole rotten system of American nationalism. You support the border that was the result of a war started to increase the number of slave states. Read some history. Your mommy and daddy are paying 35,000 a year for you to go to college so you should know this.

There was one man the Mexicans left alive at the Alamo: Travis's slave.

Now why don't you be honest... corporate hack.

It was replaced by wage slavery-- wage slavery kept in check by cheap imported labor and cheap resources.

The so-called border wall (which incidentally, I oppose) is a joke. What comes through it, is nothing compared to what flies over it or goes around it. As to "organized labor" it is big capital's whore. It does pretty much what Capital wants it to do, with a few exceptions, since before the time of Gompers.

Having read American history, I know that getting cheap labor over to the English Colonies, and later the United States, was always a desire of the moneyed interests. That has not changed.

Consider me a representative of the general population of average hard working tax paying citizens whose lives and futures are threatened by those pro-corporate policies; I (and they) are just not buying it. Also, calling me a liar, a racist and a supporter of Bush, when I am not, also does not help you; it hurts you.

"Chattel slavery ended some time ago "

Yeah. Tell it to the women in South Asia who are kept as slaves in brothels. Tell it to the 14 year old girls in Laos who have to put up with fat white pigs like you on top of them for the privilage of going further into debt. Slavery is alive and well. But hey, they're not Americans so a whiny little nationalist like you doesn't even bother to find out.

"Consider me a representative of the general population of average hard working tax paying citizens whose lives and futures are threatened by those pro-corporate policies;"

But you want those same corporations going out and killing people in the third world to bring you back your pathetic little piece of the imperial pie. And like any brownshirt, you try to couch it in anti-corporate populist rhetoric.

... and the general principle that one human being can not hold title to another human being.

... just another anti-working class pro corporate hack, who is probably still living at home with mom and dad.

"We Are Talking About The United States"

Keep me out of your "we". Chattel slavery is alive and well INSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES. Once again, the fact that you weren't aware of it shows where your concerns really lie, with keeping your own sad little piece of the imperial pie. It also shows a rather pathetic naivete about the United States and about the limitations of nationalism.

"We" forget the lessons of Martin Niemoller at our own peril.

"dem come for de rasta and you say nothing
dem come from the Muslims you say nothing
dem come for the anti-globalist you say nothing
dem even come for the liberals and you say nothing
dem come for you and will speak for you? who will speak for you, who ?"

So after they lock all the Mexicans up in privately run concentration camps:

 http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/23/1530247

Who's going to come and save you?

"Chattel slavery is alive and well INSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES."

Then you should at least report it. For if you don't, you are aiding in it.


What is it with NYU? First the "NYU college republicans" come up with the rather immature "find an illegal alien" game, and now we have you, another NYU attendee (?) labeling anyone that they disagree with on the immigrant issue a Nazi. If you or they are any example, in terms of educational quality, I would say your parents are not getting their tuition money's worth.

And what's amazing is that you had no comment on it at all. I guess if those Mexicans in that concentration camp had been "Americans" you would have cared, right?

But as far as slavery in the United States goes, even CBS is ahead of you here.

 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/23/48hours/main675913.shtml

"Matei agreed to take in any girl that 48 Hours could rescue. "Young girls and women, bought and sold, first to work in prostitution. That's slavery. We choose to believe that they are prostitutes and we don't look into it," says Matei.

She says that many of the girls on the street look like prostitutes but are actually slaves, ready for purchase and export to Western Europe or the United States."

Now it's not suprising that you aren't aware of the sex slave trade in the United States and of the slave trade in the world in general. Yeah, those Romanian women aren't "Americans" so you don't care but, once again, go back to Martin Niemoller. Who's going to stand up for you after they come for everybody else?

Give up your illusions of nationalism. Being an "American" doesn't make you better than Romanians or Salvadorans and if you think that the ruling class cares about your "right" to the piece of imperial pie those slaveowning Americans stole from Mexico 150 years ago, oh boy do you have a suprise coming to you.

Oh, btw, how's that cheap oil we're stealing from the Iraqis working out for you?

And as for this

"just another anti-working class pro corporate hack,"

Every fascist pretends to be "anti-corporate". The literature on this is VAST, ranging from histories of the Brownshirt movement in Germany all the way down to Tom Frank's "What's the Matter with Kansas".

Oh, the ruling class loves it when you guys waive the flag and pump your chests out in your American nationalist dick waiving pride, and they're perfectly willing to use you.

But look up "Night of the Long Knives" and you'll see what they have planned for you after you're no longer of any use.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_long_knives

Don't make the same mistake you did in your last life, Herr Rohm.

"Hitler's wealthy industrialist supporters were concerned over the SA's socialist leanings: Socialist rhetoric had been useful for the Nazi rise to power, but many felt the ideology stood in contradiction to nationalist Nazi goals."

... or that detention center is a pre American Civil War Southern plantation?

"Every Fascist Uses "Anti-Corporate" Rhetoric." So everyone who uses anti-corporate rhetoric is a fascist. Your reckless abandon in terms of slinging the mud does you no good service, nor will it change many minds. But this is not about that is it? Its about winning, extending dominance over others.

Official immigration policies in the U.S. are designed to restrict the free movement of labor. Therefore, they create a pool of immigrants in the U.S who lack legal documents such as social security numbers, and therefore are forced to accept low wages offered by employers.

The so-called "illegal" immigrants become cheap labor for the corporations who employ them. These corporations benefit from their illegal status. If these immigrants could enter the U.S. labor market legally, the corporations who hire them would be forced to pay them better wages.

Obviously, U.S. corporations BENEFIT from restricting the movement of labor. If labor were free to move across borders, the ability of the corporations to exploit immigrants would DISAPPEAR, or at least it would be greatly diminished.

Fascists use anti-corporate rhetoric to appeal to working-class nationalists and working-class bigots of all kinds. The fascist argument is that wealthy corporations are allied with the liberal elites allowing the "illegals" to remain in the U.S., causing great harm to working-class "Americans". There is a huge number of american working-class nationalists and nativists who buy into this bullshit.

"Obviously, U.S. corporations BENEFIT from restricting the movement of labor. If labor were free to move across borders, the ability of the corporations to exploit immigrants would DISAPPEAR, or at least it would be greatly diminished."

I disagree. You make a fallacious argument. Today, it is through the free flow of labor, like the free flow of capital, where corporations make substantial portions of their profit. Yes, there is prison labor, and exporting of production to places with large compliant populations, but there is also a large pool of importable poor desparates who are willing fodder for the transnational's race for the bottom line. As to whether the corporate elites, are "liberal" that term is meaningless, and also quite besides the point. When someone is theatening ones very existence one is less concerned about that persons political leanings and more about the weapon aimed against one.

Oh by the way, does that detention center buy and sell detainees or does it have slave auctions, selling of detainees to the highest bidder?

First the Minuteman shit at Columbia in August, then this garbage at NYU. What a surprise that two of the institutions that have contributed so gloriously to the disneyfication of Manhattan and are actively involved in clearing "undesirable" New Yorkers out of their backyards are involved in both these incidents.

Howsabout the rest of the city puts these institutions on lockdown. I dunno, bar the gates and prevent them from going outside. Scare them into thinking the subway isn't safe and drive 'em back to Connecticut or Illinois or wherever these leeches come from. Save our City.

And for all the students attending these institutions who stand up against demonstrations of racism, xenophobia, and the ignorance afforded by privilege like this, I applaud you. However, take a long hard look at the whitewashing (literally) effect your tuition dollars have had on the city, and start badgering your administrations to back the fuck off.

"... or that detention center is a pre American Civil War Southern plantation?"

Note how the Niemoller logic works with you.

First you say there's no slavery in the world.

Then I point out examples of slavery and you don't care. They're not Americans. Show me examples of slavery in the USA, you demand.

So I show you one.

But once again, you don't care. Unless it's the US government, it doesn't matter. Unless the concentration camps in Texas for illegal immigrants are the exact replicas of ante-bellum planations, then you don't care.

Sooner or later they're going to come for you. And I can just imagine how you'll react. "BUT BUT YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME. I'M AN AMERICAN".

History's full of examples of sad little men who embrace nationalism as a way of making up for their own personal failures.

You're just one of millions.

"Oh by the way, does that detention center buy and sell detainees or does it have slave auctions, selling of detainees to the highest bidder?"

Good God you fool. There are people being held prisoner in a fucking concentration camp who haven't committed a crime and all you can do is split hairs.

Oh yeah. They're not Americans so they don't count.

The discussion was about chattel slavery (the buying and selling of human beings) existing in the United States today. You have not shown it exists in the US today. What happens elsewhere lies outside the perview of the discussion. So that statement on your part is a dishonest one.

As to the detention center in question, if those being held there were to petition for return to where they came, in all likelihood they would be released from that center very quickly. As to legitimate cases of people facing political persecution back in their home countries, perhaps some allowance should be made. However, such a center is not an example of a chattel slave system.

"History's full of examples of sad little men who embrace nationalism as a way of making up for their own personal failures.

You're just one of millions."


Nationalism or sense of failure have nothing to do with it, survival does.


PS Like Biff Loman, (who knew who he was--nothing), I know who I am; do you?

"As to the detention center in question, if those being held there were to petition for return to where they came, in all likelihood they would be released from that center very quickly."

You read the article.

Many of the people in that concentration camp (note I don't use your Orwellian phrase "detention center") have been held against their will for months. One Iranian man (who's fleeing torture in Iran) only wound up in the concentration camp because his plane had to make an emergency stop in the Puerto Rico on its way to Canada.

 http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/23/1530247

"MAJID: Because they said, “You have an American visa?” That's why you have to stay here. Just plane was waiting one hour for us, but they didn't let us pass. A few officers came. They said Immigration officers -- six, seven -- they said, “We’re going to send you, but let us make decision.” After that, they called the police chief. He came there. He said, “Let me think five minutes.” After five minutes, he came, he said, “I’m going to send you to Canada, but I’m afraid to lose my job. But usually we have to send with your plane, but we keep you here. America is much better than Canada. Here you have safer place. We send you to hotel, and after a few days, you're going to be free.” But they broke their promise. That's why they keep us here, and we have very bad situation here."

But hey, he's not an Americans so I guess you don't care.

"The discussion was about chattel slavery (the buying and selling of human beings) existing in the United States today. You have not shown it exists in the US today. What happens elsewhere lies outside the perview of the discussion."

Nope. The point is that the border between Mexico and the United States (a border which you hold sacred) is the result of an imperialist war orchestrated by slaveowners to increase the number of slave states in the United States.

Thus by very definition it impacts people outside of the United States, namely people in Mexico.

Premptively circumscribing the boundaries of a discussion in immigration to the United States is not only dishonest. It's delusional.

"Nationalism or sense of failure have nothing to do with it, survival does."

Nationalism is the survival instinct of imbeciles.

To quote the great John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

... and putting words into people's mouths; it seems that this "discussion" is quickly disintegrating into nothing but "how low can one go." Quite frankly I don't want to go there. It seems the person with the super authoritarian personality is you.

As to nationalism, not a big fan of that. My view of immigration policy is this: the more people there are scrambling for a dwindling pool of jobs, the lower wages and benefits go. If that means tight limits on the number of people immigrating to the United States, then it means tight limits.

I've made any number of very substantive points, which you've either ignored or simply shrugged off as something that's not happening to Americans. All you've done is complain that the internet is too tough a place for your delicate sensibilities. Waaaaaah. People are calling you names.

But let's recount the points I've made and your responses.

1.) The American working class has no long term interest in policing the border with Mexico. This border was created during an imperialist war with Mexico designed to increase the number of slave states in the Union.

Your Answer: Uh. Slavery isn't legal anymore.

Interpretation: You dodged the point which was this: American workers have better things to do than defend an imperialist border or fight in some kind of pit for their little piece of the imperialist pie.

2.) Slavery has not been eliminated in the world. This isn't up for debate. It's been well-documented by people ranging from the liberal wing of the ruling class press (Nicholas Kristof) to Chomskyites like Amy Goodman to various Marxists and revolutionaries. Since the fall of the Soviet Union (which pretty much reinvented the sex slave trade in Europe) slavery has made an astonishing come back all over the world.

Your Answer: Uh. But it's not in America.

Interpretation: A display of the colonial mindset which values Americans above foreigners, rightfully pointed out for what it is.

3.) But even in the first world, even in Western Europe and the United States there are examples of slavery and this has, once again, been thorougly documented.

Your Answer: But it's not the government.

Interpretation: You completely avoid the point. This is rightfully pointed out to be denial.

4.) But even if the government isn't participating in sex slave trade in the United States, it is still running a complex and highly oppressive security apparatus designed to keep illegal immigrants permanently in the shadows and as virtual slaves.

Your Answer: But those detention camps can't be bad because they're run by Americans. Those immigrants could leave any time they want.

Interpretation: Crude American nationalism oozing up from the shadows.

5.) It is in the interests of American workers to oppose the authoritarian controls being put on illegal immigrants. Immigration is a labor issue, not a security issue and the state is using a labor issue as an excuse to increase the power of the state at the expense of the working class.

Your Answer: Uh. You're calling me names.

Intpretation: You're a dumbass. Smash the border now.

So how should one address the economic concerns of workers who fear the increased competition of an expanded labor pool, whose growth has been and will be fueled largely by new workers willing to perform more work for lower wages and worse benefits than the workers already here?

If anyone has an intelligent answer to this question, I would certainly appreciate them posting it here.

Anyone?

Hard to give a smart answer to a loaded question. Start by explaining the concept of Primitive Accumulation of Capital: that the bosses need a surplus pool of available labor, and whether this involves slavery or emigrants or an underclass is, from the viewpoint of praxis, irrelevant.

BTW - I enjoyed that discussion about slavery vs. wage slavery. There's a long history around that argument going back to before the Civil War, with a lot of old and recent data and research. Maybe next time.

Try to let this sink in...
Feb 27, 2007 12:28AM EST

.
"That's the single most ludicrous substitute for an argument I've ever heard."
You don't get around much...

"Do you seriously intend to convince a worker facing displacement (from any cheap labor) that she or he shouldn't object,"
Don't intend to "convince" anyone. Just intend to steer my friends away from phony antitheses like: slaves vs. workers, foreigners vs. locals, latinos vs. blacks.

"... according to a century-old economic theory?"
Theory ain't your iPOD. It doesn't work just because you push a button. And whether it's 2,000 years old or tomorrow's depends on you. In profesorese: "The truths of Marxism are not truths of knowledge but truths of becoming ("Wahrheiten des Geschehens").

"You can feel free to go and try it, but don't come running to me when both your kneecaps are broken."
I feel myself breaking into my Tom Joad imitation: "Yes, mawr..an wherever there's kneecaps bein' broken, ah'l be there. An' wherever they'se toilin' over them thar computuh terminals, ah'l be there..." Who's the Trot now?

"So how should one address the economic concerns of workers who fear the increased competition of an expanded labor pool, whose growth has been and will be fueled largely by new workers willing to perform more work for lower wages and worse benefits than the workers already here?

If anyone has an intelligent answer to this question, I would certainly appreciate them posting it here.

Anyone?"

"That's the single most ludicrous substitute for an argument I've ever heard. Do you seriously intend to convince a worker facing displacement (from any cheap labor) that she or he shouldn't object, since capitalists might also replace him or her with another sourse of cheap labor, according to a century-old economic theory?

You can feel free to go and try it, but don't come running to me when both your kneecaps are broken."




Well, thats a very real possibility for many workers. One of the major achievements of the American economy in the past 60 years has been the formation of a near-unitary global market. Just look at the ability of corporations to relocate their operations globally in order to maximize profit. Despite it being a century-old, I think "Trotsky the Horse" was right. Allowing illegal immigrants into the country creates a labor reserve and allows flexibility with wages for production companies. Their illegal nature allows their easy deportation and therefore a control on the labor market. In short there is no easy way to adress the concerns of workers who fear immigrant competition other than to say "Thats capitalism!". That may not be very conveniant and one could potentially end up with broken kneecaps, but it seems to be the truth.

On the subject of borders: people here are defending borders with the supposed intention of defending the native working class from competition. The problem with your viewpoint is that borders are the fundamental tool that the state and industry use to manage labor flows. If you really think that capitalist industry will ever really prohibit _anyone_ from coming over the border, then, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you ;). Even if it could be accomplished the economic ramifications for the US (especially the native working class) would probably be negative, with considerable inflation. People here oppose borders because its the only real way that the working class will ever be able to fight against the global economic system. While borders are in existence the corporations and state will keep everyone fighting for scraps. Its especially ironic that people here are calling anti-border advocates "corporate hacks". Corporations may not oppose the presence of foreign workers (which is a social and economic reality from everyones viewpoint except a few die-hard idealists) but you're insane if you think they want to give up their primary method of control over the labor market, the border.

So whats the point of these type of anti-immigrant events? Diversions. "No, Im not responsible for your economic quandry, nevermind the fact that I structure and manage this economy, blame it all on that Mexican guy selling oranges!". Of course people never like hearing difficult ideas ("What do you mean capitalism is responsible for this? It cant be! Ill just shut my eyes and hope I forget about this!") so they naturally gravitate towards the easy answer. Most Americans dont want to deal with ideas about the structure of society, the idea that everything they've learned is more or less bullshit, its just easier to pick on the poor guy who doesn't speak English.

As for the racism question: there are hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants in the US. Not all of them are Latin American. Many of them (in particular ones who are taking jobs that are in short supply, middle-class jobs, not fast food or retail) are non-Latino, yet theyre never really an issue. For many (most?) of the anti-immigrant milieu, the problem isnt economic as much as cultural and social. White immigrants dont pose a problem but those foreign, weird dark-skinned people do, I think thats how the logic goes and it seems pretty racist to me. Not to mention it completely trivializes the issue of people dying in the desert while attempting to cross into the US. Which shows that the NYU Repubs arent really interested in debate on a complex issue but rather mere shock theatre.

On that other point brought up, no NYU Republicans are not the KKK. The KKK is a fairly impotent group these days, outside of a few parades (mainly intended for shock value) and the occasional act of brutal violence they aren't much of a social force. The NYU Repubs are far more dangerous in that they're in a position to have their opinions have considerable influence over society when they step outside of school.

Overall I'm somewhat pessimistic on the prospects for the American working class. Ideas change slowly, very slowly, people would rather die than give up their false illusions so I don't expect most people to really wake up for a while. Until then, it is nice to see that their are some people out there that think critically about society! I give full "props" to the protestors at this event, stick it to em!


Whew! *Steps off soapbox* Thank you for your time!