Thanks so much for your peaceful action. I wanted to make a annoying remark about all the things you didn't do like my friend "the truth" but I was too busy sitting at home on the internet making fun of every indymedia posting that I couldn't make it down there to participate.

thank you.

one would think humanity might understand that those who pursue wars and the death of innocents, wherever or whoever, are the enemies of all humanity.

our actions have repercussions. it is the sad fate of our existence. for each revenge cry that echoes the air is the pain of a lost loved one. it starts cycles that may continue for generations. each military "victory" should be mourned; it is never glorious to have killed.

and to "the truth," Stalin may have called Hitler a dictator, and been correct, but it did not change the fact that he too was a dictator.

I think that 'calling out the truth''s comment illuminates the central tenets of a just politics toward peace. Standing out in remebrance and honor for people who have passed at a time and in a circumstance not of thier choosing should not be delineated into a identity=based political commitment. When one stands out against an action - it should not readily be conflated with the identity of the person who was acting. For those who were there, in spirit or in the flesh, at the meeting today - its was not about anti-americanism. It was about peace, justice, and a remebering of those who are no longer with us.

From the IMC Radio newswire, a 3-minute Ring Out collage

and let's remember that it was u.s. that armed him to the teeth in the first place...

From this observer's vantage points on the north end of Ground Zero it appeared that the entire Trade Tower site was encircled by people sounding their respect, hope, dismay or whatever emotions they felt. That added to the intense (and nearly indescribable) atmosphere of the event.

The politicizing of 9/11 by the Bush regime, which is what the RNC in NYC is all about, was only somewhat on display by those opposed to the present occupants in the White House. However, to compare a smattering of stickers, placards and buttons to the neo-cons' ongoing program of hitching their far-right wagon (and neo-fascist game plan) to our suffering is to compare a soft breeze to a viscious storm.

As we witnessed bus loads of conservatively dressed tourists go by (looking for all the world like died-in-the-wool Repugnicans) we wondered what was passing through THEIR minds: respect? reverence? revenge? their evening on the town? Maybe we can all agree that Ground Zero represents tragedy, it's just a matter of what you're going to do with it.

This observer had few quams about stickering outside the site with messages about the Bush regime's misuse of this tragedy. I wonder if Karl Rove or any number of neo-con operatives have any such quams? I think not. The Repugnicans and their fellow travelers seem perfectly comfortable advancing their policies of world domination and repression at home on the backs of hurting New Yorkers. A message making that point seems perfectly acceptable.

"one would think humanity might understand that those who pursue wars and the death of innocents, wherever or whoever, are the enemies of all humanity."

Those who support capitalism are the enemies of humanity and the entire planet.

Two years ago a project set up by the men who now surround George W Bush said what America needed was "a new Pearl Harbor". Its published aims have, alarmingly, come true. : John Pilger :12 Dec 2002


Did an American ask for 3000 Americans to be murdered to enhance their American political agenda?

I would say, it is not remembering the dead, but remembering the murder. And it isn't only Americans anymore.

Also let us not forget that he did all of that while the US was still supply-ing him with weapons and biological agents. Even after he had already used them to kill.

('cept the Kwaite thing)

nice try McCon

"How many lives have we saved by US action in Iraq? One can never know."

What a justification.

Well at least we DO know that "Innocent" life was taken, Justified by lies to cover up secrets, made by pople that make profits over the graves of others. And it seems there are more of ALL of the above to follow.

You can spin the coin with the words "good" and "evil" engraved on both sides, it stays a coin.
It doesn't matter how your life is taken against your will. Be it falling 100 floors, being crushed under the weight of 100 floors, being in the plane when it enters the building, or on the receiving end of ordonance in a war zone or during a wedding. During torture in prison, or after torture in prison to clean up the proof of that war crime...

MURDER equals MURDER,
Preacher live thy words or await thy punishment from the god and his commandments you so publicly claim to believe in.

Fred, sometimes the correct moral choice requires making the best of two bad choices. If Hitler were stopped in 1936, the world would be a better place. As Aristotle said, "Sometimes we make war so that we can live in peace." I would love to debate this with you more, but the free-speech
hating fascists here don't like any posts they disagree with, so my post will be deleted again soon (in violation of their editorial policy. )

(2nd posting of this message. 1st deleted by thought police, as expected.)

McCain..

We disagree about war or its nessecety,
or as you state it, the choice between 2 "evils" so we choose the least "evil".

How about coming up with a solution that can be considered "good" and acceptable by everyone in this world? Or does one ALSO have to think "OUTSIDE" the box to come up with a solution that doesn't need murdering by EITHER side?

It is put like there is only 2 choices and only a short time to make a descision, and there are always more choices, then the warmongers in powerfull positions want to let you choose from (In your mind!)... Reference, read my first reaction.

I remind you of "If you are not with us then you are with them"... Funny how people that are against war, at once are put at the other side of the line with the enemy that way. Not? And who the "us" is, is left over to the person for checking whether he belongs to the domain without the guilty feelings.

Same with "Someone is changing the way we live"..
We who? We the powerfull? We Americans? We bag Lady's? We veterans? We one check from bankrupcy workers? WHO WOULDN'T want change from a situation where the water wets the lips but never quenches the thirst?

You state "Sometimes we make war so that we can live in peace."
How many wars has the US had in its relative short existance? How long did you really live in "peace"? How many of those wars ended in an "expansion" of territory? How many of those wars were initiated by false flag operations or also justified by plain lies?

Anyway, this "Choice between 2 evils" is not how it was presented to the American public by the so claimed side of "Good", that needed lies (In front of a world audience in the form of Mr Powell's speech in the UN that had holes bigger then the Pentagon.) and coverup of proof in secrecy (To protect the "failed" {40Billion + secret black budget recources?} methods and recources.) on all sides and edges of the 911 story to keep a coherant storyline for the rubes in their 5 minute attention span...

Wanna try to explain again why fighters that can do 2000+secret Miles/Hour manned by experienced patrtiots ready to give their life for the fatherland against any enemy, only fly 375 Mph to catch a couple of unarmed flying ducks? (Especially if the EP-3 incident in China a little while before 911 learned the fighter pilots how to down a plane without having amunition....) Or that the Pentagon has an airfield on 10 miles distance, who's primary task is to DEFEND Washington DC?

Then you stated that if Hitler would have been stopped in '36... How could Hitler be stopped if the rich and powerfull backed him? Check into the Bush family line to see who supported Herr Adolph. Makes me wonder if we can stop A potential Hitler in 2004... Not?

Anyway, do remember that the Murder of even ONE innocent goes on Herr Bush'es account and not Saddam's. He is going to the hell he so truly, as a born again Christian believes in. I don't think that god will make an exception for Herr Bush. And he goes with my blessing. (Probably after reading this from a lot more people...)

And I Do agree with you on the deleting... Truth can never be deleted without consequenses. Only lies can.

You make some good points.

My view is that democratic nations do not wage war against other democratic nations. I am hard pressed to think of any examples. I do not, therefore, think as some do that war is inevitable. I do think that the end of war will be the spread of democracy throughout the world. I take a very very long term view. The end of war, in my estimation, will be democratic nations in each nation. I look at our cold war battles this way, and I look at Iraq this way. Each a step toward a better world.

"I am hard pressed to think of any examples."

Must be just out of your attention span then.

Just one example of how "wars" are/can be fought without being declared by congress.

Chile - Allende, Venezuela - Chavez.

"I do think that the end of war will be the spread of democracy throughout the world."

Puppet governments that are allowed to rule as long as they pull the recource car for the most powerfull democracy?

"Each a step toward a better world."

For Who? Just look that the DU contamination of IRAQ to see that over a Loooong time.

Nice try, but those were not our wars. Oh, perhaps we helped a little, but that is debatable and moot to the discusion. The point you are missing is that democratic governments do not wage war on other democratic governments, so the sooner we turn the world into a bunch of democracies the better. Kudos to the visionaries in this country who understand this painful reality.

And when you say "puppet governments", I suppose you are allowing that people wish to live under alternative means of governments? Tell that to the millions of people recently freed from the Soviet yoke. No sir, there is no better form of government than democracy, although just as imperfect as men collectively are imperfect, it is nonetheless the best we can do.

If you believe that.. Keep faith.
You are going to need that in the future.

"Not our wars" ... Lie.

"democratic governments do not wage war on other democratic governments"

Just proven to be a Lie, if war is the destruction of any resistance to your side's arguments then coup's in other countries against the will of the people of that country can be considered an act of war. Be it political assasination, coup's or whatever the secret branches of executive power have power and money or connections for.

"the sooner we turn the world into a bunch of democracies the better. "

With Chalabi's and Karzais' as example's of puppets in power or to be put in power.. My Point proven.

"Kudos to the visionaries in this country who understand this painful reality."
The visionaries of Death, destruction, suffering and profits.

"I suppose you are allowing that people wish to live under alternative means of governments?"

And what is so wrong with that? Government for the people by the people with a mandate from the people to guide that people to the future for the children with respect for other people's rights in that future.

"Tell that to the millions of people recently freed from the Soviet yoke."
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

"No sir, there is no better form of government than democracy, although just as imperfect as men collectively are imperfect, it is nonetheless the best we can do."

Again settle for the least of two evil's eh?
btw, I just love how you crawl from subject to subject to not really have to address the issues.

Very funny, Fred. You are using circular reasoning to attempt to prove something. You say something, which you say establishes fact, which you can then use for conclusions. Not very convincing.

In reality, people who choose their own governments, invariably choose democracy. The empirical evidence is overwhelming it is a superior form, the best mankinds has developed thus far. And beyond empirical evidence, it does the best job appealing to the universal rights of man.

Democracies don't wage war on other democracies, so the sooner we spread it the better. Communism was inherently evil, and empirically proven dangerous to the world. Luckily it is dying, and the sooner the better. Same with fascism.

When you see a world full of democracies, you will see a better world. In the meantime, whatever any nation does to promote this change is a noble effort on behalf of mankind.

"Very funny, Fred. You are using circular reasoning to attempt to prove something. You say something, which you say establishes fact, which you can then use for conclusions. Not very convincing."

I think I 'll use a Winston Churchill quote as my final statement:

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened."

Have a "good" life.

Excellent quote by a man who stood up for democracy in the world, perhaps unequaled in the last hundred years. You'll discover the truth of the man someday, the man behind the quote.

Which truth? The part where the man said, "The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law (eg. unlawful combatant, American or otherwise), and paricularly to deny him the judgement of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist."?

Or the part where he said that he wanted to use poison gas against "recalcitrant Arabs" (in fact, the group in question was mostly Kurds and Afghans) because "[t]he moral effects should be good, and it would spread a lively terror."?

:D

"The point you are missing is that democratic governments do not wage war on other democratic governments"

Someone needs to brush up on his history. The U.S. has overthrown more than one democratic government in the post WWII world.

People invariably choose "democracy"... Only a couple of handfull of male, white americans got to choose about their government form. And in Iraq and Afghanistan (Par recent example.) It is "dictated" after western model with a few modification to make it digestable for Muslims. In Kuwait, the old pre western regime was installed after Desert Storm.

If I claim "lie", it is a lie. And I can prove it.
However, I don't see it as my task to educate idiots or trolls that don't want to or can't see beyond the blinders with that comfy pink feel.

The quote said it all.

There is documentary evidence that now proves that no 757 hit the Pentagon. Independent researchers and investigators have worked for nearly 3 years to make sense of the "official version" and what we've found is a big fat block of swiss cheese.
9/11 was a massive stageshow put on for the benefit of the public. The souls lost on 9/11 were murdered - by domestic terrorists within and behind the White House.
Our government not only allowed it to happen, they helped facilitate it to happen.
No 757 hit the Pentagon. Please visit  http://www.wingtv.net and check out the documentary for yourself - "911 In Plane Site".
There is more than enough research and factual information to show that the towers were brought down with explosive charges inside the buildings and what looks to be a missile and other incindiary devices on the "customized aircraft" involved.
The way the towers came down is more indicative of controlled demolition than of planes hitting the buildings or from fire. No steel-reinforced building has ever come down in our history due to fire.
Please take a look at what we're doing at WING TV and help us get the word out to America. 911 was a huge pyrotechnic stage show and we have been suckered by our government and those "evildoers" who have infiltrated our government at the highest levels.
Americans must be made aware and this information must be brought into the public awareness.
The video documentary is based upon FACTS and the footage comes from multiple mainstream news sources but has been slowed down so you can see what we were not meant to see.
and then once you watch this, ask yourself: "If no 757 hit the Pentagon, how can the suicide-hijacker theory be true?"
There is so much the public needs to know about 9/11 - we MUST infiltrate the mainstream space. The consciousness of America must shift.
We must all see through the smoke and mirrors.
It's time for the truth to come out. The people who were murdered on 9/11 will not have died in vain.
We owe them that much, at the very least.

Thank you for reading this far.
To see the Pentagon evidence, please also check out  http://www.letsroll911.org.

"documentary evidence that now proves that no 757 hit the Pentagon. Independent"

You have seen the confiscated security cam taperecordings from the gas station and the hotel, and they do not with their images confirm the official story for 100%?

You might have a problem, building a watertight case, if you haven't seen the proof carried on these 2 witnesses..

And if people don't care about 2750 Americans, they forsurely don't care about 250 sacrificed lambs (or martyrs.)