+++Please Forward Widely!!+++

PICKET the City College of New York administration in defense of free speech!
Thursday, March 17, 12:30 p.m.
Meet in front of the administration building, 138th and Convent Avenue

SIGN a letter of support (see below)


DEFEND FREE SPEECH AT CITY COLLEGE OF NEW YORK (CCNY)

The three CCNY students arrested and brutalized Wednesday, March 9, for peacefully protesting the presence of military recruiters at City College’s “career fair” were arraigned and released Thursday. They were charged with misdemeanor counts of assaulting an officer, resisting arrest, and disturbing the peace, among other things. Hospital records from Mt. Sinai confirm that Nick Bergreen and Justino Rodriguez suffered multiple contusions and postconcussion syndrome. Their court date is set for April 5.

CITY COLLEGE HITS BACK WITH SUSPENSION AND ANOTHER ARREST

Friday, March 11, Hadas Thier, an undergraduate student at CCNY, was informed that she had been suspended from the University for “posing a continuing danger,” and was banned from even setting foot on campus, pending a hearing to take place sometime in the next seven days. Meanwhile, Carol Lang, a CCNY staff member, was arrested in connection with Wednesday’s protest and also charged with assault.

Gregory H. Williams, the president of the College, sent an email to the entire faculty and student body repeating allegations against the students as if they were facts. “The confrontation escalated and several of the demonstrators grabbed and hit the officer. At this point, the three students involved in the attack on the officer were arrested,” he wrote.

It is a disgrace that the administration has so clearly sided with campus security without any evidence or due process, rather than looking out for the rights and safety of its students, faculty, and staff. Together, the actions of the security guards, the City of New York, and the CCNY administration have served to stifle dissent and create a climate of intimidation.

WHAT YOU CAN DO

1. Let them know what you think:
(and copy  cityfreespeech@earthlink.net on your emails)

Gregory Williams, President Maureen Powers, VP for Student Affairs
212-650-7285/7286, 212-650-7680 (fax) 212-650-5426, 212-650-7080 (fax)
c/o Chief of Staff Michael Rogovin c/o Assistant to the VP George Rhinehart
 mrogovin@ccny.cuny.edu  grhinehart@ccny.cuny.edu

George Crinnion, Director of Public Safety Danny Vasquez, Security Specialist
212-650-7992, 212-650-7991 (fax) 212-650-7988, 212-650-7991 (fax)
 gcrinnion@ccny.cuny.edu  dvasquez@ccny.cuny.edu

2. Sign on to the letter supporting free speech on campus

Please find the letter attached. To sign onto the letter, send an email to:  cityfreespeech@earthlink.net

3. Picket the administration (and deliver your letter in person)

Meet in front of the administration building, 138th and Convent Avenue
THURSDAY, March 17, at 12:30 p.m.

Bring signs and placards in support of free speech on campus!


******************************************************************************

Dear President Williams,

We, the undersigned, are outraged that freedom of speech for faculty, staff, and students of the City College of New York (CCNY) was so blatantly attacked last week.

We were dismayed to learn that three students were attacked and arrested by campus security guards for exercising their constitutionally protected right to assemble and to protest.

We were further outraged to learn that you swiftly moved -- without evidence, due process, or a discussion with the arrested students -- to suspend one of the students and to arrest another protester after the fact. This guilty-until-proven-innocent approach sends a chilling message: security forces have free reign on campus.

We demand that you defend the CCNY students, drop all disciplinary proceedings against the students involved in the protest, and launch an investigation into the actions of campus security.

Signed,



Hadas Thier, CCNY Class of 2005
Justino Rodriguez, CCNY Class of 2007
Nicholas Bergreen, CCNY Class of 2007

Everyone who can get up to CCNY needs to do so. CUNY is not like other college campuses. 10 years ago this spring, scores of hunger-striking students were arrested for non-violently protesting massive tuition increases and faculty retrenchment. It is not a middle class university and the students are treated like shit. The idea that the "free exchange of ideas" will be tolerated by a student body from Harlem and the Bronx is totally lost on the campus administration.

The administration is not appointed by city and state politicians because of their concern for providing CUNY historic mission of access to excellence. There has been a purge of left-wing administrators, with the old guard replaced by political appointees dedicated to fucking CUNY up. That might sound hyperbolic, but check it out.

Hadas -- take care of yourself. And don't take anything lying down.

If the administration and the "SAFE" Team want to play hardball, you have every right to start disrupting classes, calling walkouts and encouraging students to obstruct the normal flow of the campus. Free speech isn't granted, it's taken.

First they trash the quality of the schools, then they use the student body as a captive audience for military recruiters. It's shameful.

I go to a working class campus in the tri-state and I must say the level of activism is very low and half-assed.

You guys are setting a great example and raising the bar for what student activism in the 2000s means.

What about those of us who do not want to fight, and shouldn't have to?

What about that?

You can either fight now at school or fight later in Iraq when the draft comes back.

It's up to you.

When writing, don't forget to ask when the name officially changes to "Joseph Goebbels College".

And the date for the spring book burning.

March 10, 2005

TO: The College Community

FROM: President Gregory H. Williams

As many of you may know by now, three CCNY students
were arrested yesterday; two for assaulting a CCNY
Public Safety Officer, and another for obstructing
government administration, after a small group of
students was removed from the Great Hall for disrupting
the Spring Career Fair.  The peace officer in question was
evaluated by EMS on the scene and taken to St. Luke's
emergency room for treatment; he was released in the
late afternoon.

Approximately 700 students came to the Career Fair to
present themselves to 62 employing organizations.
Among those organizations were the Army Health
Services, recruiting health professionals, and the Air
Force, looking for engineers and teachers.  Approximately
15-20 students and three CCNY faculty/staff came to the
Hall in order to demonstrate against the representatives
of the Army and the Air Force. They were instructed by
campus Public Safety Officers that they could attend the
career fair, but that any demonstration must take place
outside the building. The group members entered and,
disregarding these instructions, began to protest loudly
inside the hall.

When they became disruptive, they were escorted out of
the Hall by campus security officers.  In the corridor
outside the Hall, they were told once again that they were
not allowed to block the hallway and must take their
protest outside, where they would be free to continue to
express their opinions.  The confrontation escalated and
several of the demonstrators grabbed and hit the officer.
At this point, the three students involved in the attack on
the officer were arrested.

The incident is under investigation and any and all
allegations concerning the incident will be fully
investigated upon receiving a formal complaint.

Every member of the City College community has the
right to voice his or her opinion; we respect the
university's role as a sacred place for competing and
passionately held ideas.  This does not extend to the right
to disrupt the ongoing activities of the College, or the
rights of other students, faculty and staff to go about their
activities. We will not tolerate any acts of violence or other
violations of campus public safety regulations by
students, faculty or staff. Appropriate action will be taken
against any student or member of the faculty or staff who
violate campus regulations, including disciplinary
proceedings and, if necessary, arrest where warranted. It
is essential that all members of the College community
are respected and protected.

hey - where is the administration building? i'll spread the word.

David,
"Meet in front of the administration building, 138th and Convent Avenue"

On March 9th, CCNY was host to the annual Career Fair in the Great Hall of Shepard Hall. Unlike last year, this year's fair appeared more professional, more organized, with more companies, more majors, and more students represented. It looked as though the time has come for CCNY to be taken seriously again by the major employers and job recruiters. As I walked into the cavernous hall, I truly felt like a winner.
Unfortunately, there are some elements within the campus which remain opposed to change, and listen to only what they want to hear. Around 2PM, members of various Marxist movements on campus entered the fair with the intent of shouting the military recruiters off the campus, and protesting captalism.
Basically, they threw leaflets around, physically refused to leave when ordered to, and violently resisted arrest. As with all leftist demonstrations, they had a cameraman with them to film the "police brutality." They view our country's military as murderers, imperialists, racists, and homophobes. As a result, they tried to deny the military their right to set up a table!
Whether you like war or not, the military recruiters have as much right to set up a table as the anti-war people. Unfortunately, SLAM wishes to physically discourage anyone who disagrees with their views. They have too much clout on campus, and feel that they own it. They fail to understand that the recruiters also have a right to hand out leaflets.
I was prepared with an American flag and pro-American pamphlets of my own.
I was born in the USSR. According to one of the SLAM members, the USSR "wasn't really communist." These demagogues never lived a day of their lives under communism. My family did. If the soviets weren't communist, maybe the Nazis weren't fascist, either!
As for Carol Lang, she believes that the Zionists worked with the Nazis in creating the holocaust! This accusation is disgusting, considering that my Zionist grandparents were fortunate to survive the Holocaust and prove Lang wrong! I hope that you give this letter some serious thought. Responses are welcome!

The above post is by a repost of a commentary at at rightwing counter-left website. It was authored by a conservative member of the student government.

The current USG at CCNY, as well as other campuses, have received tremendous backing from the administration becuase of attempts from the Board of Trustees down to supress student activism.

On some campuses they use legal force, such as at CCNY, Hostos, Hunter and York, all of which have had police (or CUNY's anti-protest swat team called "SAFE") break up protests and attack students.

The supression of student newspapers has also happened at LaGuardia, Hunter and CCNY, where award-winning Messenger was defunded under administration pressure. Student governments have also been directly purged at CCNY, which is why there are right-wing jerkoffs currently "representing" students who they hate.

SLAM has tremendous support at CCNY because they defend the school system. The ISO, which was also involved in this incident has been doing great work against the war.

All leftist student groups at CUNY have had working unity for many years. The level of conflict from the government and administration have made this practical unity a necessity.

But read what conservative students say. They are totally isolated among the student body, but have the active support of the adminsitration which has been trying to break the back of the student movement for years!

Why to kill? Why worms?
Take a hike with your self-defense.
Make love, not war. War is, among other things, rape.
Don't make rape, make love.

I'd like to attend as a demonstrator, but will I be arrested just for being there? I'm not a student of CCNY, or any other college currently.

K: The NYCLU, which is representing the arrested protesters, has promised legal observation and protection to the best of their abilities. I'm not a CCNY student either and I'm going; I expect it to be safe.

If someone's rights and welfare are being violated, it isn't safe for them.

Here's a Counterpunch article on this case and one that happened the same day at San Francisco State. It's cowritten by Hadas Thier, the suspended CCNY student, and one of the SFSU protest organizers.

"Counter-recruitment is gaining strength; Military recruiters target campus activists"
 http://www.counterpunch.org/their03152005.html

In this case, Carol Lang, the female staff employee from New York City College addressed in this article went on NPR this morning, March 18, 2005. Mrs. Lang was accussed of assaulting a cop, was held in prison for 30 hours without being able to speak to her attorney and was suspended from work without pay for 30 days all of which is illegal.

I have a lot of mixed feelings concerning the recent events at CCNY. While I fully support the efforts to provide alternate information about recruiting to H.S. students, I believe that barring/protesting officer recruiters at places like CCNY, Hunter and NYU will have a detrimental effect on diversity within the military officer Corps.

Like it or not, we are in Iraq, an invasion I vehemently opposed. The majority of this nation is either rapidly pro-war or ambivalent about what is going on. While this is going on, we continue to send young people into harms way through economic conscription (aka. the poverty draft).

By removing CCNY graduates from pursuing OCS and officer opportunities, we are further ceding the military officer corps to the right-wing crowd. Instead of providing a stream of young, urban officers from diverse backgrounds, we are removing their presence at a time when they are most desperately needed.

I will make one thing clear, the Army and USMC WILL find people to be Lieutenants but to do so, they will either lower standards or increase the "good ol' boy" output from places like VMI, the Citadel and West Point.

The military is overrepresented by urban minorities in its enlisted ranks and underrepresented among officers. Unless you've served on active duty as I have, you have no idea how important it is that CCNY grads have the opportunity to lead, teach, coach and mentor others. Having an LT w/ a CCNY degree in command of soldiers from every background imaginable is a good thing. It expands dialogue and opens minds.

The influence a charismatic young officer has over their charges is unbelievable. I stand firm in my belief that my 4 years as an Army officer was more of a "counslor" or "teach for America" experience than a purely military one. The opportuities to influence and make a difference in a young person's life are almost limitless. I opened many minds to the idea of pursuing higher education, that all people from Manhattan (like myself) weren't "commie traitors" and that it is important to view an issue from both sides.

I am proud of what I did and sent soldiers who never thought they were "college material" to get out of the Army and earn degrees from Syracuse, Rutgers, Wisconsin, UTEP and Columbia. I even tutored some for the SATs.

In these trying times, we need educated, principled urban junior officers like never before. Ceding the province of national defense to the right-wing "red staters" is NOT the answer. It further alienates those urban enlstees from a feeling that anyone that controls their fate "understands where they come from." It is very counterproductive to have NYC only represented in the "worker bee ranks". FYI, about 20% of the Army is officers yet last year, NYC provided over 4,000 enlisted soldiers and less than 50 new officers. This paradigm MUST be changed. Protesting OCS recruiters on a college campus is not the way to achieve your goals.

My final thought: Focus your passion and energies on H.S. JROTC "trojan horse" recruiting programs and the harassing recruiting tactics used at places like JFK, Theodore Roosevelt, George Washington and DeWitt Clinton high schools. Those are the kids that need your help.

College grads serving as officers are NOT being exploited. I fail to understand how a CCNY grad that goes to OCS and gets the same pay, responsibility and authority as a West Pointer or Princeton grad is a bad thing for the Army, nation and New York City.

mazeartist wrote:
"Whether you like war or not, the military recruiters have as much right to set up a table as the anti-war people."

Actually, they don't. CCNY has a right (and some could argue a legal obligation) to remove groups from campus that violate its mission statement, which is to not discriminate based on gender, age, race, religion or sexual orientation. The army *does* discriminate based on sexual orientation, and so allowing them on campus makes CCNY vulnerable to GLBT anti-discrimination lawsuits.

Protest is all well and good, but this isn't going to stop until some good lawyers step in - like they have successfully done here:  http://www.aclu-nj.org/legal/legaldocket/freespeech/forumforacademicandinstitu.htm

JC,

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a FEDERAL law, authorized by Congress. It is not some capricious fantasy dreamt up by the uniformed services.

You should be advocating Congress to overturn DADT - but, in these polarized times the votes aren't there. Ditto, for the chances of a Presedential Executive Order.

The only option remaining is the courts. Sure, the 3rd Circuit issued a ruling. Do you think for a minute that their tortured logic comparing the Army (an entity ordained in our constitution) with the Boy Scouts will stand before the Supreme Court? Hell no.

So, this gets back to my previous post which you probably ignored. If we can't get DADT overturned in the legislative, executive or judicial branches, how exactly are we better off as a nation by NOT having institutions like CCNY, Hunter and NYU represented among the ranks of military officers?

You obviously have never served and thusly don't see the danger of an even larger "red state cabal" forming in the DoD. We went from an Army Officer Corps that was 50/50 Dem/Republican in 1968 to one that is 8-1 Republican/Dem today.

As a registered Green and an Army officer I have seen what is going on from the inside. Go ahead and kick out the OCS recruiters at City College. They'll just find more LTs from the Citadel or Mississippi. That'll be a great way to inspire and reassure the young black and latino privates from the Bronx, Detroit and the Mexican border. You are not thinking about the repurcussions of your actions.

Five CCNY graduates that go to OCS, will be collectively LEADING about 150 soldiers within 6 months of graduation. The influence they will have is unimaginable. That is the key to victory for our cause, not ignoring that the military exists or that the poverty draft will continue unabated whether NYers serve as officers or not.

"So, this gets back to my previous post which you probably ignored..."

"You obviously have never served and thusly..."

Many assumtions for an essentially anonymous poster. I didn't ignore your comments, I just didn't address them.

I haven't been in the military, but from what I gather from my friends' experiences, it's not the kind of organization where 5 individuals from CCNY are going to make a bit of difference regarding recruitment policy.

The supreme court doesn't need to agree with local court decisions for them to have an effect on public debate - the more appeals courts and schools join the 3rd's injunction, the more people talk about the issues you raise above - and that spurs political will.

I don't agree with the logic that "all we need is more of our type of people" in the recruitment system. That tactic may be defensible in a political system, which is built to respond to criticism from below, but not in a military system. Whether there's a 50/50 split or a "red state cabal," the military will continue to respond only to top-down (political) pressure.

I also don't agree that empathizing with young soldiers from the Bronx who've chosen to serve extends to making them feel comfortable and "reassuring" them about their decision. Who knows how many of them are now wishing the recruiters had never turned up at their school?

High profile cases like the 3rd Appeals court spur public debate about the poverty draft and enforced discrimination. Participation with the current military agenda, even as a registered Green, will change none of that.

JD,

You are living in a state of utopian denial

1) I'm not talking about having "more folks like us" in the Recruiting system. I AM talking about having diverse, principled and open-minded young New Yorkers leading American kids in our Army - an institution that is not going way as long as we are a republic.

2) You really do not understand the influence that a young Lieutenant or Captain has over their charges - this can be both good and bad. You can choose to "play within the system" and challenge these kids to leave the Army and go to college as I did or you can ignore the fact that they are serving in our name. I'd prefer the former. My brother shares my politics and is currently an Air Force officer. He directly supervises 81 kids in ARKANSAS fixing airplanes. He's only 24 and has encouraged many of them to do other things with their life. The influence is profound. For many, he is the first real-live NYC blue-stater they have ever met.

3)It's not about making a difference in the Recruiting Policy. It's about making a difference in the lives of the young people you lead. That CCNY officer will have a hell of a lot of influence in their own unit and this will cause others to open their minds. I can't tell you how many officers I served with had the most absurd stereotypes of Manhattanites, Greens and Democrats before they met me. There is something to be said for fostering a "we're in this together" kinship. Performing acts of civil disobediece in Manhattan in ways that most American's find loathsome just makes us more irrelevant at places like Fts. Bragg, Drum and Campbell. I have news for you - most of America is more like those places than NYC is.

4) There is no national political will for overturning DADT. None. Even the Democrats know that touching the issue is a third-rail in an era when a blue state like Michigan "bans gay marriage."

5) Your comments about "reassuring" young soldiers completely misrepresent my point. Like it or not, there ARE tens of thousands of kids from NYC sering in the military. They are there, they will continue to be recruited and you really can't change that. The JROTC "trojan horse" for recruitment has been incredibly effective. If we are having young New Yorkers from impoversihed backgrounds serving as privates, why the hell should we not have a corresponding number of college grads from similar backgrounds LEADING them. In many Army support units you have a traditionally Democratic consituency being led by a hard-right group of officers. This is untenable.

6) You closing comment about the "military agenda" reveals how abstractly you examine the issue. The work of privates, sergeants and Lieutenants has nothing to do about an "agenda." They come from all walks of life and in postitions of leadership, New Yorkers need to be represented. Donald Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and DADT are so far removed from the daily grind of military life. Its all about putting food on the table, staying alive and hoping to see your loved ones again.

In closing, last year NYC sent about 4,000 kids to the Army as privates. We sent less than 50 as Lieutenants. Considering that 20% of the Army is officers, this imbalance is striking.

The Lieutenants of today are the Colonels and Generals of 30 years from now. I can promise that things will get a whole lot worse if our officer corps continues to come from a small, self-selecting pool of conservative Republicans.

Colin Powell is a CCNY alumnus. Great job he did covering up the My Lai massacre in Vietnam to start his stellar career as a loyal servant and LEADER of the US miliatry.

The point is "diversity." By many accounts, the US military is one of the few actual meritocracies in the country. This isn't the old army. But so what? It's purose is to kill and dominate other people and not under the "leadership" of a few NCOs from CUNY. The Commander in Chief is Bush. Rumsfeld runs the Pentagon. These people are our enemy.

It's not "utopian denial" to notice what the army actually is. It's common sense and plain speaking.

Maybe you like to think voting for Nader absolves you of YOUR responsibilities towards obstructing the army's capacity to function, but that's your cross to bear. Since you're already in the military, maybe you could start by fucking shit up, helping lower morale and helping young people desperate for some stability in their lives come to understand why recruiters lie to them about what the military offers.

It was Vietnam vets who talked me out of enlisting in the Marines when I was a teenager. Do your part.

Burningman,

Nice expletive riddled rant. I'm sure that you'll make a lot of friends with those in uniform, many who vehemently oppose this war. I'll try to take the "higher road" here.

1) Colin Powell. You really think that he, a young Major at the Time, singlehandedly "covered up" Mai Lai. Please. He was serving as a Battalion Executive Officer in the AMERICAL Division at the time. Not a tremendous amount of influence there. Actually his career took off long before his second tour in Vietnam, but that's not the issue.

2) The entire thrust of my comments are that trying to prevent CCNY graduates from becoming OFFICERS is a bad move and in the long run, a tactical blunder. FYI, NCOs are Sergeants they are not officers. Officers lead the Army, make policy and determine strategic decisions. Again, how will having no officers from CCNY, CUNY, NYU or Columbia make things better?

3)You can call Bush and Rumsfeld your "enemies" all you want, but at the end of the day we will still have a military and they still will be called on to do things in our name. I view your comments to suggest that servicemembers are blind automatons. Not true. Especially in Iraq, decisions of life-and-death, right-and-wrong are being made by young Lieutnants and Captains only a few years out of college. Will a few dozen CCNY officers do anything to oust Bush? No. Neither will having Citadel or VMI grads take their place. The impact they WILL have is by providing principled and fair leadership to those recruited into our armed forces. This will make a difference in the way checkpoints are run, suspects are treated, military justice is meted out and humanity is respected.


4) My "responsibility to disrupt the Army's function." Nice lecture there. Actually I left active duty in 2002 to return to grad school - hence the screenname of "IRR Sodier." As in, Individual Ready Reserve. I am visiting your site aren't I? I'm also trying to engage in a dialogue and perhaps give another perspective here. I was a recruiter in NYC before getting out of the Army, know the way the system works and what truly is and is not effective. I have no qualms with your efforts to disrupt recruiting efforts aimed at high-schoolers or your work to get JROTC out of high schools. I DO have a problem with denying educated and principled adults the opportunity to serve their fellow citizens as officers.

In a deployed situation, in a combat unit, the last thing you want to do is "fuck shit up." That is what gets people killed and I surmise that a healthy number of the 58,000 names on the Vietnam Memorial are there because of a "fuck shit up" mentality.

Like it or not, officers are trusted with the lives of young Americans. Part of that is to bring those kids back home to their loved ones. Anything less is unacceptable.

Piling more woe on a kid pulling duty at a TCP in Baghdad that doesn't want to be there is a surefire recipe for disaster. As much as I disagree with this war, I do have good friends there - officer and enlisted. The last thing I would ever want to see is for discipline to break down further and have more people unnecessarily die as a result.

What you CAN do is to reassure them that a) you know where the are coming from, b) you largely agree with them, c) show you will do everything in your power to bring them home alive and d) continually explore other life/career options with them. I've talked the talk and walked the walk. We need more willing to do this.

5) Your encouragement to soldiers to "fuck shit up" is proof-positive of your ignorance of who serves in the military and how the force in a "post draft era" uses financial shackles to get folks to behave. Anything less than an honorable discharge and a kid loses his GI Bill and College Fund benefits - the precise reason why most put themselves in harms way in the first place! If you are discharged for being gay you even keep your GI Bill, if you "fuck shit up", you get chaptered or court-martialed and lose everything. Wow! Losing a year of your life in Iraq and $42-75K in college money. That's a lot to ask of anyone - let alone a 20 year old. How many of your student protestors, the same age as a private, would be willing to sacrifice so much for principle in a system they cannot change? Answer: few if any.

The answer is to keep doing what you are doing in high schools. The most important thing you can do is to fight JROTC. I can tell you from first-hand experience in Recruiting Command that JROTC is indispensible to the Army. Without it they CANNOT make their recruiting mission.

In your post you commented how "Vietnam vets" helped you figure things out. Well, if there is no one from our ideology that is articulate and has a credible service experience, where are we in the future. That is my biggest concern for the left. There is such a paucity of anyone under age 55 that served in uniform, that we lack the intellectual and more importantly, interpersonal "bench" to take on the right wing. Having more progressives serve their three years as an Army LT while making a difference in the lives of soldiers would go a long way.

Yeah, no cursing in the barracks... and nobody ever "curses like a sailor..."

Fuck shit up? YES! When the army operates like its supposed to it is a killing machine. You can be all polite about that and hope that folks from Harlem can earn their share of the glory and the booty, but if "the left" is supposed to line up and HELP them wage their wars, then we might as well just fly up the white flag now.

I have enough friends who've been in the military (all branches) to know how dehumanizing it is to them, how much brainwashing they had to get over and the weight those of them who killed people defending their own countries have to bear.

The military is run by far-right lunatics because that's what it's for. I'm glad this soldier is here posting, but he shouldn't assume he's the only one because that's how he chooses to identify himself. I appreciate his candor and his right to his opinions -- but he's wrong.

We have to stop people from going into the army, obstruct the functioning of the military as much as possible from the inside -- and returning soldiers need to do their part as well by sharing their experiences and FUCKING SHIT UP. If they were willing to fight Bush's oil war, then can come back home and fight for a society worth living in, one that doesn't keep half of Black men in New York permanently unemployed and then turn around and say "sign up, killer."

The IRR says that if people "fuck shit up" they will lose their college money. He doesn't mention that only 15% of people promised the GI Bill actually graduate college. It's a load of horseshit. Plus, if you're smart -- you won't get caught.

So be smart when you fuck shit up and don't let liberal busybodies tell you fall in line and do what you're told so you can "get ahead" over a pile of dead people killed for oil.

Watcher,

I think you are injecting a few issues that stray rom the point I am trying to make, but I will respond in kind...

1)The purpose of the Army. Yes, the purpose of the Army is to fight our nations wars. Yes, that involves killing. To advocate a further breakdown in discipline will result in more wanton killing - not less. This will be increased American deaths from fratricide and ineptitude, more Iraqi deaths from a command climate that devalues human life and more innocent foreign nationals killed in the crossfire.

2)I don't see my perspective as simply "have the left fight wars." My perspective is that we have hundreds of thousands of kids serving. We need to encourage folks of our mindset that we have a DUTY to lead them. Why should military leadership be the province of red-state Republicans? We must be EVERYWHERE. Wherever we are not, we further cede ground to the right. Again, with 4,000 NYC kids going to the Army last year and only sending 50 officers to lead them, the college educated with perspective and beliefs need to step up and be counted. We can lament all we want about the evils of JROTC and predatory recruiting but if we fail to serve and lead those already recruited, we are turning our backs on them.

3) The military has NOT always been led by far right lunatics. Army officers until recently have had an unwritten tradition of being politically unaligned. Read Morris Janowitz's seminal work, "The Professional Soldier", and you can plainly see that as recently as 1973, the military officer corps pretty well reflected the breadth of national political opinion. At the expense criticsm, I would argue that our senior uniformed Army leadership (not civilian) are not "right wing nuts." I DO see a danger at the Major and Colonel level - the Generals of 10-15 years from now. That group, in my experience, is the one to watch out for. Right or Wrong, the military is a tool of US foreign policy. If we continue to have a self-selecting officer corps from an emerging "military caste" leading disadvantaged youth - we do so at our own peril.

4)Where did your frinds serve, when and in what branches? I am not disagreeing with the need to protest the ENLISTMENT of privates. I am disagreeing with preventing the recruiting of officers - the leaders of the military. Again, how are we better off by not having CCNY grads "mixing it up" with West Pointers, Citadel, Texas A&M and VMI types. Those 4 schools BTW are the largest producers of Army officers.

I don't feel I was "brainwashed". My brothers don't either. Come to think of it, I can't recall a single officer ever complaining of being "brainwashed." I didn't remember any "group think" among the junior enlisted I led. I saw a lot of perspectives and yes, individuality. See the movie "Gunner Palace" if you don't believe me.

for what its worth, its interesting having irr soldier here, even though i disagree a lot with what he's saying. ubt its nice to see an unusual opinion (unusual, that is, for this site).

Counterrecruiter,

I certainly hope that you aren't actively counter-recruiting giving out such bad advice.

1) Telling a soldier to "fuck shit up" in a war zone is a nonstarter. Why would you advocate someone in harms way to do something to directly undermine their own safety and the safety of friends? Not to mention advocating a unit climate that enahnces the likelihood of civilian deaths.

2) Your argument about the GI Bill needs to be dissected carefully.

a) The contention that "only 15% graduate" is not a compelling reason to have someone put that money in jeopardy. While many soldiers who pay into the GI Bill never use it, very few plan on not using the money. $60,000 is $60,000. Asking the lowest ranking and most vulnerable personnel to "risk it all" is stupid.

b) The 15% myth. Well, where do I begin? I guess it is helpful by starting to say that HALF of all first-term soldiers reenlist. Those guys will not use their GI Bill because they stay in the service. That is fully 50% of the pie right there. If a soldier stays, they get degree money from TA - tuition assistance - a different (DoD not VA) pot of money.

c) Disability Money. Before the war even started, about 10% of soldiers left service with a VA compensable disability. These people get "VA Vocational Rehab" not the GI Bill. This is a more lucrative pot of $250,000 per soldier for school. Anyone medically discharged and found 20% disabled gets this. They can't double dip and get GI Bill as well.

d) Life Happens. I think we are very disingenuous if we fail to consider the social strata of the majority of enlistees. Simply put - for many, college is not an immediate option. Many first-term soldiers out of loneliness rush into marriages destined for failure. We have a young, heavily married force. Being a father of 2 at 20 and holding a GED is not the most conducive launching pad for earning a bachelor's degree. Many soldiers get out and the financial pressures/reality of life overcome their educational goals.

e) GI Bill delimiting date. Don't get a degree in 10 years, you lose your benefits.

f) GI Bill can be used for vocational schooling. Many guys get out and use it to get a CDL, do an apprenticeship or other license. To suggest that only a "four year degree" is a mark of success belies your own bias.

g) For the 15% that you say get a degree - it is a damn good deal. It's putting me through Law School and is even paying my bar exam admission fee in NYS. I can tell you this, most of my soldiers that got out and used it got their degree. This program is a lifeline to many.

Perhaps its low usage underscores WHO we are recruiting. I submit that if we had an enlsited force as educationally and academically diverse as we did in WWII or Vietnam we would see a higher GI Bill usage. I guarantee if we had a draft, more than half eligible would use it.

One more reason for the 15% Rate -

Chapters!!!

Pre-2003, fully 39% of the US Army failed to complete their term of service they signed up for. This is attributed to a variety of factors:
Entry level seperation, fraudulant enlistmant, pregnancy, patterns of misconduct - the whole yards.

Many of these seperated soldiers "paid into the GI Bill" but are precluded from using it because a) they do not have an honorable discharge or b) they did not accrue the required 24 months of Active Federal Service needed to "vest" the GI Bill.

I have seen the stats you cite - there isno breakout for those that get chaptered. This is a significant portion of the "paid but did not use" population. The VA doesn't know their separation circumstances until they apply for benefits.

IRR -

Thanks for sharing your experiences. How do you (and others) feel about pushing for a real choice between military service and "civilian service" like Americorps in recruiting efforts? Germany has made mandatory service work by giving anti-war conscripts the ability to do state-sponsored volunteering (domestically and internationally) instead of warmongering. This could drag the "red state" brand of military patriotism towards looking more at poverty (and their role in perpetuating it) as well as set the stage for a national contradiction in terms forcing a reevaluation of the military's role ("fucking shit up" via congressional action?). Obviously Americorps kinda sucks right now (I do speak from experience on this one), but if it was funded as a real alternative to the military many would probably prefer it. I doubt this idea has much of a political chance as long as we're "at war," and the anti-authoritarians on this board will probably reflexively lunge at anything legitimated by the state, but it is an old idea, first advocated by William James in his essay "The Moral Equivalent to War."

JC,

I would agree 110% with such a proposal. In fact, I have advocated it for years. It would truly create, as Bourne once said, an "Army of Youth." Our country would be greatly benefitted.

In fact, I can think of no other way to effectively bridge the rifts in our society between the "haves and have nots" and "red v. blue staters." We are a deeply polarized country and court decisions like the Milliken one in '74 (?) have completely gutted any hope that public education can be a tool to "bring us together."

I am familar with Germany's Sozialdienst and Bundesdienst options. Like their system, I would hope that the non-military option would be a longer term of service, in order to see who really has anti-war convictions and who doesn't.

That being said, I am encouraged that others have the same perspective as I do.

I believe that the current configuration of Americorps/VISTA is a disgrace. The experiences are uneven and administration is spotty. The financial benefits are ridiculously low. This, BTW, was largely a concession in Congress as to not "threaten military recruiting."

National Service: Military, Peace Corps, VISTA, Americorps, a revamped CCC - I'm 100% for it.

JC,

In rereading your post, I would be cautious if we descend to the point where we brand any person serving in the military as "warmongering."

As I have hopefully presented in this thread, any place that we [progressives] are not is ceded to the far right - the real warmongerers. This is happening in our Army, in the Department of Homeland Security and in local and state enforcement entities.

The moment that a wide swath of opinions is no longer represented is the day you will see real warmonger from our military leaders. We ain't there yet, but in 10 years we will be perilously close if we do not encourage some of us to serve as leaders in DoD, DHS and the like.