Whether we have a permit or not, we will march!

Let them arrest us, gas us, beat us, or worse. This clearly exposes the utter hyprocisy of their claims that the United States is an "open and free" society.

I agree with Captain Democracy, we cannot allow the police to control our demonstrations. On February 15, we will take to the streets, with or without a permit (and I would almost prefer the latter--although it might reduce our numbers a bit, imagine how much more meaningful our presence will be).

"We shall fight them on the beaches
We shall fight them on the shore
They will bring us exploitation
And we'll bring them their class war"
David Rovics

Don't have much to say, beyond what's already been said, but I urge the UFPJ coalition to take these concerns and suggestions seriously. An unpermitted march of ONE MILLION PEOPLE reclaiming the streets of New York would be the most decisive stament against the war I can imagine.

with or without the permit, we will march on feb 15

fuck them, unpermitted and unruly, direct action - now they are fucked

though not going to nyc myself (local actions planned),
i hope everyone in new york takes the streets in a march as they damn well should - permit or NOT!

"Anyone who would trade their freedom for security deserves neither" - Ben Franklin

Permit or no permit I will be in the streets. It's time to show the world the true resolve of this anti-war movement.

I'll see you all there!

or the organizers could plan many marches of 10k.

Let's say 200,000 show up (maybe more!) - imagine 20 separate marches of 10,000 people at 20 different parts
of NYC at once!! Holy sheeeet, we could *really* shut the city down.

anyhow, permit or not, the streets are OURS!

here in theUK they've banned the rally at the end of our feb15 march- because the grass in hyde park will get trampled on! You know what we've got to do. . . don't wait for anyone to tell you. we're expecting around a million people, biggest ever political gathering in UK.
PEACE

....if we express our beliefs and our opposition to war and to the killing of innocent people by communicating massively and effectively, this event will make the most difference. Let's work to insure that the gathering will happen, that it will be covered by all media, that everyone knows about the event , and by turning out in massive numbers, really unprecendented numbers. We need to let go of distracting, divisive opinions about other issues in order to focus on the common issue that we share, namely, that the war proposed is not necessary, nor justified, nor do the actions regarding it represent the belief of the people of this country. Those of us who understand simply need to point to the facts, and take a clear, simple stand. If we are looking to get attention, we will accomplish this by bringing people massively, and standing to be counted. This will be accomplished by finding the commonality of our goals, not by alienting others, but by including as many as possible. Not by tactics allow others to discredit and marginalize us as "fringe elements." But the position of human beings being opposed to the destruction, brutality and killing of war.
thanks for reading and for participating

that's real pretty and all (though with some
subtle undertones of attack on some folks' choice of
tactics perhaps?), but this thread is about NYC not
giving a permit to MARCH. The question is, do we let
that stop us or not. I say no fucking way - no matter what part of the "movement" you are in.

********Get MARCHING BANDS OUT FOR FEB 15!*******
Those crazy dancing drum corps that you see in the Thanksgiving day parade. Call up high schools, colleges, or just your instrument playing buddies from high school band, and MAKE SOME FUCKIN GREAT NOISE! Drums, horns, whistles, bullhorns, whatever you can come up with.

We need to make a new, creative, loud statement on Feb. 15. Get CHEERLEADERS out there too, for god's sake. After the old-style drones at the Times Square march, we need some FIRE behind this one.

This is New York Fuckin' City afterall. Lets show the world how crazy and loud we can be about stopping this war!

Captain Democracy is right. even thought getting beaten or arrested may sound extreme, it could be used to gain sympathy for this cause. Just remember, this means not doing anything. Don't resist, don't fight or even argue with the cops, in fact don't say anything. This way, if they do beat or arrest you, you have a stronger case. By resisting, people can look and say, "Oh they were breaking the law, they were resiting arrest, they started it. Hooray for the cops!" Let the cops make the first move! That's what Dr. King and Mahatma Ghandi would do.

Tell you, Protesters who do allow themselves to get arrested have more balls than I'll ever have. I don't think I could do it. (I admit it, I'm a wuss.)

we should march anyway, regardless of what's "permitted."

Don't waste your organization's money taking this to court. You can't stop war in the courts, or on paper. Get out onto the streets and say "whose streets - our streets"
stop war
Toronto

"Don't resist, don't fight or even argue with the cops, in fact don't say anything. This way, if they do beat or arrest you, you have a stronger case."

right, just lie down and take a beating and go to jail, on the off chance you'll be a media darling. that sounds like a very privileged thing to say, to me.

from the ap:

"The administration said that Bush's eleventh-hour round of diplomacy will last "weeks, not months." Senior administration officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that while the timeline could change in the fluid Iraq standoff, Bush intends to continue the consultation period until Feb. 14, when U.N. weapons inspectors give the Security Council an update on the situation in Iraq."

keep the peace going. Espeacially in NY. We got to take the statue of Liberty Back from the fascist republicans and their puppet masters

read your history. the followers of gandhi and king were not priveleged to say the least, but they practiced strict nonviolence as 54 advocates. there is plenty of room to disagree on tactics and strategy, but it is inaccurate to call the supporters and practitioners of nonviolence prvileged.

I agree...

Respect a diverse range of tactics...

They are forty thousand. We will be at least one million.

We are not all the same, and can't all do the same things, but whatever we are able to do, let's all do it to stop this war and stop capitalism from ruining the whole planet. I live in the South, am a middle-aged working, single Mom. I am active in organizing a fledgling union in my workplace, put up anti-war flyers at work, am facilitating a discussion at my church on war on Iraq, vigil with Women In Black, and protest nuclear weapons.

I don't want to get arrested or beaten, but I want to do whatever I can to stop the war. I feel happy and excited when I read on the Internet about strong young anti-capitalists who do unexpected and creative things to fight capitalism and don't have to get beaten or jailed.
I keep remembering what Viola Plummer said recently: "We need to make America UNGOVERNABLE by war-mongers."
DO IT!!! and try NOT to get hurt or jailed.

There have been many marches in NY over 10,000 people. Go ahead and march anyway. This freedom to do so, is part of what it means to live in America.

We are gonna march, and march, and march. The first ammendment and freedom of assembly are clearly stated. It is our constitutional right, not that the current administration has the slightest regard for our constitution or civil liberties, we can't let them take those rights away. I will march for my cousins, my brother, and my uncle in the military. I try to talk them out of the military, (little brother lived down south with no money for school and went in for the gi bill in august 2001- I tried to get him to get out, Vietnam dad was P.O'ed!) The gov't is not allowing money for schools or books, though they put ROTC in the schools, and very attractive military recruitment video games. There is rampant homelessness, hunger, unemployment and lack of healthcare. And people freezing to death right near the occupied white house. Whose Streets? Our Streets! Whose Government? Our Government. Take it back. Like Viola Plummer said, let us be UNGOVERNABLE. (shout-out to mid-age anti-cap single mom & organizer) My little boy says POwer to the People. We shall overcome. and I do pity the folks who dare to try to turn my baby boy into a fighting machine. It is our responsibility to raise our voices and march our feet, whilst we still have a shred of freedom to do so.
And just a little peaceful fuel to the freedom fire, here is a little background info on bush's grandfather and great grandfather helping to fuel a holocaust. Read it for yourself. Heir to the Holocaust :
 http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.3.html

The Bush Nazi Connection :
 http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

Gold Fillings, Auschwitz & George Bush :
 http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm

Or just do a search at www.google.com under " Prescott Bush Nazi UBC 1942"
and take your pick of the documents that come up. (Highly recommended.)

-------

You can send comments to t r u t h o u t Editor Marc Ash at:  ma@truthout.com

 http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012303A.ma.dead.htm
--
Grow peace. Create a positive future. Make your voice heard. Go to:

 http://www.ProgressiveSecretary.Com

NYPD will do any thing to stop the peace movement that is going on . Nothing will stop us

I think there should be a nationwide strike on FEB 15th. SHUT THE COUNTRY DOWN. I think this may be the only way GWB will pay attention.

Also, Here is a sure fire way the United Nations could prevent President Bush from attacking Iraq. Just triple the number of inspectors and do not let them leave Iraq until the inspection is over.

Would President Bush attack Iraq with 2000 United Nations inspectors there? I hope not! What do you think?

I think a national general strike is a great idea, but shouldn't it start on the Friday before, or the Monday after the demo?

The police down here play this permit game with us all the time. Unfortunately, many of our groups participate in this charade, even when they are hostile to the police. My suggestion is to go ahead with your plans, cops be damned. If you fight in it courts, you legitimize the very idea that the cops have a right to give us permission to exercise our constitutional rights. The Bill of Rights doesn't say a fucking thing about having to check in with the cops to use those rights.

I'd also like to point out that this entire controversy is very American. Around the rest of the world, protesters never take out permits to have demonstrations! Only in America, where the cops have managed to get activists to police themselves, can they get away with this arrogant attack on our rights.

As the wise Utah Phillips once said:

"The state can't give you free speech, and the state can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free..."

i really hope the outreach and mobilization goes on reagardless, and that as many people come and march ANYWAY. i got a hunch the b.s. going on in nyc and in london may have something to do with the fact that the war may be starting very close to feb 15...

Permits?

We don't need no steenkin' permits!

UFP&J needs to give us an update. The demo is 2 weeks from today, we want to know what the latest plan is. Does anyone know?

UFP&J needs to give us an update. The demo is 2 weeks from today, we want to know what the latest plan is. Does anyone know?

I wouldn't mind 2 minutes speaking time to present
the Libertarian view of these horendous consequences of
our forgetting the wisdom of the very First Clause of the
First Ammendment of US Bill of Rights as explicated in
 http://cosy.com/Liberty/FirstClause.htm .

Bob Armstrong , Manhattan LP DaD /  http://CoSy.com
WTC vision :  http://cosy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/

"UFP&J needs to give us an update. The demo is 2 weeks from today, we want to know what the latest plan is. Does anyone know?"

the plan is to take a page from the british book:
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,884774,00.html

For people coming in from out of town, where will the meeting place be? Please get this information out. There are a bunch of us from Boston who would like to be in NYC on the 15th but need to know where to go

Here in London, the authorities have tried to stop us from having a raly in Hyde Park at the end of our march on Feb 15, In Hungary the march itself has been banned. Seems the authorities across the planet are getting really scared. We should take heart from this, re-double our efforts to mobilise for the protests.

This is a real sign of their weakness and our strength.

They can attack us, ban us and outlaw us, they can jail us, beat us and victimise us - but they will never win!

I live in the West Village in NYC. Where do I go on the 15th of Feb. to participate in this march?

I am in complete solidarity with the organizers of this protest. I don't really care if we are granted a permit, I will be there in any case. I would hope this will manifest peacefully, however it appears that the "authorities" are setting it up to be challenging and ultimately violent. I implore everyone to be peaceful and non-violent in the spirit of Dr. King and the many other practictioners of non-violence. I would suggest this in order to present our cause as one of respect and validity. I say this as a 53 yr old woman who has marched for many causes over many years(sometimes it seems like many lifetimes). I cherish the zeal and dedication of the younger memebers of our shared community, but I also respect the attempt to make this message one that cannot be misconstrued in the media. I agree that we need to carefully plot our course and maintain our credibility so the casue is not violated. Please let's keep this peaceful!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you know if there's anything going on in Los Angeles, or do I have to fly to New York. In that case I need more info.

Hi guys and gals,
Just a little note from Omaha, yea that's right,ultra-conservative Omaha, Ne. Last Wed. eve. after our weekly Peace vigil on the busiest corner in town, we held our first all-inclusive organizing meeting for parties and groups interested in helping to create Peaceful coexistence among all people. This Wed. eve. we will hold our second organizing meeting and we have invited reps. from as many diverse groups-political parties,churches,unions,etc. I was responsible for contacting reps. from the republican party and was pleasantly not too surprised to find positive response from the gentleman I spoke to who,incidently,is a vet of the Gulf war. Hello! who the hell are the polls polling anyway??? As if I can't figure that one out! They still can only get 77% of bush supporters to buy the lies. Anyway, lots happening on the home front here, and remember, as long as we act in a fully peaceful manner we can march anywhere we wish at any time we wish. Permits are another form of suppression and I am not aware of any provision or amendment in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that mandates permits to voice opinions. If cities have certain ordinances that require permits for gathering to demonstrate then call the demonstrations by another name and continue to do so until we take back our individual freedoms and our collective dignity!!!
Keep the Peace train rolling,
BV

I would love to support this event.
Please respond with more information in regards to time and location etc.

Forever thanks.
Jessie Clear
814 Broadway #5
NYC, 10003
646.242.5636
 jessie_clear@hotmail.com
 jessie_clear@fitnyc.edu

It's great to read about all your work in USA and New York. I was in Florence with 600 000 in peace demonstration in november, and hope you'll have the same wonderful spirit in New York on the 15th!
So much love and support from us in Europe, Anna, (sweden)

On febuary 15, I think I will be excercizing my right to play nintendo. Can I get a shriek to that?!!

"The Great Satan" take you!

Ursula down in Los Angeles -

There is a march being planned for San Fransisco.

Hope you are able to fly or take the train up here.

www.unitedforpeace.org

i know that our group will be in nyc on the 15th, permit or not. the date is set for us. from what i see here most people will not be turned away for lack of permit.

It is as important if not more important to delagitamize the 10,000 person limit as to oppose the war.

Can someone please tell me why the rah-rah crap? "They will never win" is a fool's statement. That they always win is plainly obvious, regardless of interim gains made by freedom-loving folk. It's called "history."

People don't need - and are ultimately enervated by - ridiculous statements that we have all the power. We don't: that's what we're fighting. It's worth it no matter what, but we won't necessarily EVER live free. There's no teleology of freedom playing itself out here, folks. Take a look at how things are going - and how they're accelarating: it doesn't look good for freedom, not to mention advanced biological life. There's a need to simply acknowledge the truth, to see and accept what is, before making change.

We don't need no stinkin' permit! March!

"If you make peaceful demonstration impossible, you are only making violent resistance inevitable."

"Hope you are able to fly or take the train up here. "

isn't it a bit irresponsible to encourage people to *fly* to come and protest a *war for oil*?

just a thought.

if people can't get to a big protest, why not organize something in their town?

Do you think there would be any value in writing to our local papers asking them to let us know what is happening?

I say go, the bigger the better! What better American way to speak as one voice. For those interested in voting for impeachment go to: www.votetoimpeach.org at this site you are able to send a message to your congressman to move for impeachment of President Bush and his 'group'. This campaign is being guided by the former Attorney General under Pres. Johnson, Ramsey Clark. Another campaign is being guided by Professor of International Law at the University of Illinos, Francis Boyle reach him at:  FBOYLE@LAW.UIUC.EDU He is offering his services at no cost. Needs support of The House of Rep. to start the ball rolling. I say it's time we take our country back!

Yes, we must march in opposition to this war. But we must do it peacefully:

"What others teach I also teach. 'The violent will not come to a natural end.' I take this as my precept."

"Through compassion, one will triumph in attack and be impregnable in defence. What heaven nurtures it protects with the gift of compassion."

Lao Tzu



Lao Tzu

give peace a chance ,these marchs need to take place the powers that be can no longer blind us from the truth we are getting to visable keep up the good work..im from ca and the s.f marchs are powerful peace and light

Call Police Commissioner Ray Kelly's office and demand that the citizens of NYC be allowed to exercise their Constitutional right to protest this illegal war:

Ray Kelly 646-610-5410

Hey I just noticed that the IMC-UK item on police measures to block and dismantle and disallow peaceful parades and protest against war ends with how you can complain directly to London's parks department..
NYC, facing similar problems..we here should also directly confront by complaint to City Hall, and also start immediately contacting local media outlets to convey the reality of difficulties we face in exercising first amendment rights.
I suppose I ask anyone to please post asap the kind of info we'd need to complain to the city here and get with legal action to face this nonsense and unjustified crap.
It's in everyone's interests to preserve our rights and the constitution which is being burned up before our eyes by this sick and monstrous administration oil junta while local drones in uniform follow orders from a federal level to oppress and stifle peace-loving citizens.
Thanks

Yeah regardless we will be there in large numbers
and fuck all to their bs
A march will occur anyway and hey they're just creating more problems...also, let's not lose the focus, it's
about stopping the wAR, not us and them mentality which is what authority of any kind cancerously feeds on
WE WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT
THE PEOPLE UNITED WILL NEVER BE SILENCED

No permit needed. This is the Highest Law in the Land!

Stay peaceful...
===========================================================
 http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or
the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

===========================================================

No matter what BS they try to pull the power ultimately rest on the people, and I'm going to organize a local march for the 15 in my home location which is a town of only seven thousand called Livingston Montana so rest assured that your efforts inspire people everywhere.

I'm marching, because I have the god given right to walk anywhere I fuckin' please

The only thing I really want to mention is that I realize that there is an necessity for the activists to unite, but if everyone keeps looking to somebody else to find out when and where to march, there will be no marches...Co-ordinate your marches with other organizations, and remember if it's going to be illegal for us to march, there will be many secrets

I promise.

If everyone shows up... there will be a march. permitted or not. Organized or not. If 500,000 (or more?) turn up in the streets of NYC there is nothing that can stop a march. There is no barricade that can be built or police line thick enough.

It may seem like a little idealist but if it turns out as big as we are imagining it then we will all find each other.

and we will march.

yes - as was once said:
"they got the guns,
but we got the numbers"

there is nothing that could stop 500k people
from doing anything they damn well please!

MARCH!

I'm planning on marching with my husband and children (ages 6 &8), my 4 Quaker cousins from Minnesota, and many friends. The Brooklyn womens' chorus will be there too.

To the barricates!

We can't let them push us down and censor our right to rally and march. If the city cannot afford to "contain" the rally than obviously the federal government is not giving the city enough funding -- besides, we are not terrorists, we do not need to be contained. Our first amendment rights should not be restricted. Go for it!!! I will be there!!!

You should tell us where we shouldn't march and rally so we we don't inadvertently break the law.

Just announce the march assembly point, rally route and rally location now, and the 500,000 or more people will come. The First Amendment is always our permit for political demonstrations, which this is. The half million or 1 million people who show up will easily outnumber the police. It really is time now to get on with the announcement of locations.

The First Amendment is always our permit in political protests. It is time to announce the march and rally location NOW. The 500,000 to 1 million people who attend will easily outnumber the police. Bloomberg is playing with a political hot potato which will certainly guarantee his defeat in the next election if he does not allow the march. Everyone who intends to attend, please call Bloomberg and all his lackeys, over and over again. All all your local city politicians and complain to them as well. Tell them all that their political futures are on the line if you cannot have a peace march in New York City of 500,000 and up. Your Gay Pride Parade is always huge, as is just about everything else in New York City, such as the St. Patrick's Day Parade, the Columbus Day Parade, and all the rest of them. The Democart-Republicans are going to have to learn that while their parties are warmongering parties, we have a right and a duty to demonstrate for peace, and The First Amendment is Our Permit.

Here's the deal. Tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of folks are trying to work out last minute details for travel to NYC for Feb 15th. And accurate info about start times, assembly points, parking, legal, med, and other logistical concerns not only can help folks plan more effectively, but also may crucial in determining whether out of town anti-war groups and activists will make the effort to come.

Tough choices, but better info will help. If what emerges is a last minute compromise with the NYPD to have permitted mass rally, and/or a march restricted by size, then many folks may choose instead to march at home.

10,000 ??

in a small village in germany there were more than 10,000 demonstrating in the streets - last month!
now, every week this march is growing - on february 15th in almost all nations in europe there will be national marches in the capital of it.
only england and america won't partake !!

to your information - iraq is getting bombed since years

against brainWashington !!


NO WAR FOR OIL - NOT IN YOUR NAME

It´s funny how the "neat lawns" would be so damaged! And how about earlier demonstrations like the ones for the september 11th? As already stated, this is a clear hypocrisy in order to favor only the few one´s interests (with shortsight) and to forget the common problems (on the base). Or does it mean that all of us are traitors to our country???

hi

i am wondering that americans still believe that any war of the USA is against terrorism: (afghanistan, kuwait, iraq, iran are full of important natural resources)

NO WAR FOR OIL - NOT IN YOUR NAME !!
..only thing you need are regenerative energy sources :)

whole europe will be in streets on february, 15th !!!
berlin will be more than full .. without techno music !!!
show that not only "old europe" is against another war of the usa

a small march in a smaller village grew up to 10,000 people last year in germany - so you are late and you are less :P

america, country of superlatives .. where is your rationality

do you know that the us forces are bombing iraq since years?
i would be thankful to the usa, just like the middle east is

FIGHTING FOR PEACE is like F***ING FOR VIRGINITY

I am one of those thousands of Friends of Granny D, who have traveled far to walk with her in her long marches for democracy. She inspires, and because the hour is getting late, she is a speaker that should be heard. Please ask her.
At age 90, she walked across the United States for campaign finance reform, it took 10 miles a day, for fourteen months, through blizzards and deserts. All along the way she woke up Americans to the threat against democracy, in the form of corporate money.

Here's the opening of her open letter after 9-11:

September 14, 2001

"Dear Friends:

In the space of an hour, thousands of Americans had their lives snuffed out by acts so cold-blooded that we cannot wrap our imaginations around what has happened. I have three grandchildren who, until Tuesday morning, worked near the World Trade Center. We held our breath until they found their ways to telephones and finally, on foot, to bridges and home. Many of their dear friends must be among the less fortunate.

It is a nightmare from which we cannot wake.

As we emerge from our pain, as we begin to accept the dimensions of this loss, we will of course resolve as a nation to make our world safer.

Whenever we suffer a tragedy, we ask ourselves, "how can we prevent this in the future?..." (cont.)

"...The news shows --that incidentally are never interested in covering the reasons why so many people are angry at American policies-- are now full of swaggering militarists who are looking, please, for someone to kill for peace. They will have their way, for the emotions of our nation are running to red."

"But those who seek true security must not stand aside in silence. Those who know that international justice is the only road to international peace must continue to speak their minds. It is not un-American to do so. It is, on the contrary, un-American to fall into a state of fascism, where our civil liberties are forsaken and the human needs of Americans and of people around the globe are forgotten."
cont...  http://grannyd.com/911.htm

I am one of those thousands of Friends of Granny D, who have traveled far to walk with her in her long marches for democracy.
At age 90, she walked across the United States in 2000 for campaign finance reform, 10 miles a day, for fourteen months, through blizzards and deserts. All along the way she woke up Americans to the threat against democracy, in the form of corporate money.

Here's the opening of her open letter after 9-11:

September 14, 2001

Dear Friends:

In the space of an hour, thousands of Americans had their lives snuffed out by acts so cold-blooded that we cannot wrap our imaginations around what has happened. I have three grandchildren who, until Tuesday morning, worked near the World Trade Center. We held our breath until they found their ways to telephones and finally, on foot, to bridges and home. Many of their dear friends must be among the less fortunate.

It is a nightmare from which we cannot wake.

As we emerge from our pain, as we begin to accept the dimensions of this loss, we will of course resolve as a nation to make our world safer.

Whenever we suffer a tragedy, we ask ourselves, "how can we prevent this in the future?"cont....

......"The news shows --that incidentally are never interested in covering the reasons why so many people are angry at American policies-- are now full of swaggering militarists who are looking, please, for someone to kill for peace. They will have their way, for the emotions of our nation are running to red.

But those who seek true security must not stand aside in silence. Those who know that international justice is the only road to international peace must continue to speak their minds. It is not un-American to do so. It is, on the contrary, un-American to fall into a state of fascism, where our civil liberties are forsaken and the human needs of Americans and of people around the globe are forgotten."
cont...  http://grannyd.com/911.htm

Okay, you folks in UFPJ, listen up! You're in the process RIGHT NOW of fucking yourselves royally. The longer you wait to announce the date, time, and location of the convergence, the more you play into the hands of the cops. You must act NOW. You must get this info out NOW.

This latest missive that I got in this morning's mail about how you are "confident" that a permit will be issued is absolutely ludicrous. The cops' strategy - as it has been for the last forty years! - is to drag this proces out as long as possible and then - last minute - grant the permit. In the meantime, the cops will have installed those damned barriers - just like last time in NYC - and have the riot battallions all lined up all along the route that they knew all along they were going to give you when they decided to give you the permit. We, however, will not know any of this and the cops will - just like last time in NYC! Didn't you folks pay attention?! - wall off two blocks on either side of the "permitted" area and forbid any bystanders whatsoever to get even within visual range of the march, much less be able to engage people within the march.

The net result of all this is that your silly permit-seeking creates a very dangerous atmosphere for all those most vulnerable people who will be in the march - the very young, the very old, the infirm, etc. Now, supposedly, you are getting the permit in the first place in order to make the event safer. Well, wake up! This little game you're playing with the cops not only doesn't make any of us safer, it makes us all a hell of alot LESS safe.

Stop playing this game that endangers us all: Announce the convergence place and time NOW!

I'm going to school in syracuse but you can bet ur ass that i will be in the city next weekend - Che Flag in one hand, molitov cocktail in the other. The city has been quiet for too long, the lack of permit will help us make all the more rucus. See you there.

How about FIFTH AVENUE? From Grand Army Plaza (Central Park West) all the way down to Washington Square. Let's not fuck around. LET'S TAKE FIFTH AVENUE FEBRUARY 15TH!!

Best of luck to all of the marchers in the upcoming NYC anti-war demonstration. You are the true patriots of the USA! In Madison, almost 8,000 of us protested last weekend... while not as newsworthy as your goal in NYC, we will all be watching and doing our part.

And someone please use my idea for a sign:

Side 1: Picture of Kenneth Lay and Osama bin Laden: "Guilty, but free"

Side 2: Picture of Iraqi family: "Innocent, but dying".

Why not gather at various public locations such as Central Park, Washington Square Park, outside the UN, etc., etc?
People involved with UFPJ could also be at those locales & keep in cell phone contact, deciding & coordinating when & where to move as the situation allows. Use the subways if the final destination is too far to walk.. If tens/hundreds of thousands of people stream into NYC as private citizens, they cannot be blocked by the NYPD. Perhaps a dozen or so roaming/spontaneous demos will bring the message all over the city. Stay all day -- look for each other -- make it "Festival-like."

In Bristol (and some pockets of the US who have picked up the idea) there is a 'sick of the war' movement building.
The basic idea is that with many people on temp contracts etc we can't expect people to call a strike. What we do have is the right to call in sick.
"sorry boss i turned on the radio, heard about all the death and felt physically sick- it's just got worse all day"
This free's people up for a day of civil disobedience without laying their job's on the line, and the economic system takes an (admittedly small) dent to profits.
If you will help publicise this idea/meme it could be the start of somthing big.

It is time to generate some creative approaches just in case the permit is granted at the last minute and/or we are unable to get the word out regarding the march route.

Already many of the above posters have offered suggestions. They should all be applauded. Our strength rests upon our ability to be more adaptable than the authorities. Let us keep our ears open and utilize all the technology at our disposal to ensure we can gather in large numbers.

I would like to suggest we borrow a page from our Latin American neighbors and make a joyful noise when we hit the streets. I always carry a whistle myself but pots and pans and a large spoon to bang upon them works wonders. The point is to announce yourselfto other demonstrators so that we can come toghether into larger, somewhat safer groups.

When downtown Seattle was declared a "protest free zone" in honor of the WTO meeting, many of us dribbled into downtown in tiny groups and shared our coordinates via cellphone. At that time it was not safe to travel in small groups as the police were well armed and targeted whomever they (dis)liked with impunity. When danger is present it is best not to announce yourself with loud noises.

But when we look around the city and see all the different groups who are organizing contigents DESPITE the fact that a location has not been announced, well my heart is lifted. We will come from every corner of the city and flood the streets with justice:

We have come too far
We won't turn around!
We'll flood the streets with justice
We are freedom bound!

Much love and peace all you beautiful people!

My fear is that we are being set up. Should we not be able to organize ourselves in an orderly manner becasue the police are jerking us around, it could only be that the police want to unleash anarchy. Angry black-block types (or police dressed to look like them) could unleash havoc with the attention of the police pulled every which way. Any resulting evidence of violence against property will not only appear on the front pages of the corporate press but will also give the authorities all the ammunition they need to with hold permits for any future demonstrations. A viscious circle jerk. They set us up so that they can condem us later.

> > WHAT: A festive and theatrical CARNIVAL BLOC FEEDER MARCH to the
anti-war
> > rally on February 15th.
> > WHEN: 11:30, Saturday Morning, Feb.15th.
> > WHERE: Between the Lions, on the steps of the New York Public Library,
5th
> > Avenue between 41st and 42nd Streets. From there we¹ll march to the big
> > rally
> > >From the steps of the NYPL we'll wend our merry way to the United for
> > the
> > Peace and Justice rally, likely to be at the UN, though this is subject
to
> > change, so we'll go where they are. For details on the rally, see
> > www.unitedforpeace.org
> > WHAT YOU CAN DO: Bring Mardi Gras Beads, costumes, instruments,
> > drums, beats, boom boxes, dancing shoes, noisemakers of all kinds, bring
> > posters and banners and puppets. Bring yourselves and friends. Be
prepared
> > to mock the Axis of Oil without mercy.
> > And please, playful or stern, SPREAD THE WORD!
> >
> > PLEASE REPOST WIDELY!

We have all the permit we need. It's called the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. The organizers of this march are definitely playing the effers' game by not announcing. And on a (perhaps) unrelated matter, What's with all the mainstream liberal duds, many of dubious credentials even in that context, they're putting on the podium? One possible upside to no permit is that some of them will stay home. For those who fear arrest let me assure you there's nothing more fun than spending 30 or so hours at the Brooklyn Naval Yard and the Tombs singing, chanting and driving your jailers bonkers then having your NLG lawyers sue on contingency for several thousand dollars. See you there!

Tom- er, uh Ron

let's cut the crap: diversity of tactics is just the "movement's" way of dealing with a total tactical impasse, so what happens? each group still hates the tactics of the others (they don't *respect* them, please..) but both just agree to disagree. let's not feel the need to glorify everything we do. and on a somewhat unrelated note, with imf protests gearing up in a bit, i am really curious to know why every other damn cause needs to schedule marches in tandom on the same damn day the imf has their meetings. that makes it VERY difficult to get ANY word out to the public about the imf/wb. the other issues are just as important, but the message about the imf/wb is lost. i've seen it happen time and time again, and it's really sad to watch. remember when being against imperialism meant you were against everything that we march against now? that was easier. much clearer message, and a more cohesive ideology that realized that all of the "separate" issues are heavily interlinked, and rooted in capitalism/imperialism. sigh..

i agree, but i'm not so sure protesting the imf/wb is the greatest way to educate people on the reality of capitalism and imperialism. i'm not saying don't do it, i'm just saying don't resent another group for using the date. especially since for the most part, i think protesting relies on the media to get the word out. the corporate media has no interest in denouncing capitalism anytime soon, but they can be swayed against the war since a good majority oppose it anyway. i could see how the two protests could be competing for participants. however, i think the objective should be to show the anti-war demonstrators how the two are strongly connected through imperialism, as i'm sure they do not realize or do not feel the need to fight against. this protest could be an opportunity for a movement against the imf/wb to grow.

 http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/oil.jpg

 http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/oil.jpg

 http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/oil.jpg

No one has the right to cancel showing my opinion!
Permit or not, we will march!
Peaceful wishes from that "old europe" Germany

Knowing the deadly consequences but instead of flaming and the chance of there being a draft I will be more than prepare to die for you people for our rights than for the people in charge of our goverment right now.

"I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

This protest won't be easy.

In the current situation you will not be dying for our rights. You will be dying for oil company profits and the political career for an UNELECTED sub-par leader whose administration is dismantling our rights.

Around the time you were born the evil Iraqi dictator was a US-ally. The US and other major nations including the old Soviet Union, France, Britain and Germany materialy supported the evil dictator while the evil dictator gassed the Kurdish minority inside Iraq and Iranian civilians during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. No comment was forthcoming from our "leaders" in the Reagan/ Bush I regime.

Of course, you can't be blamed for not knowing this. You were too young to be aware of it & (I assume) being raised on Corporate CNN/FOX news you will never be told about it. The Corporate, ultra-right-wing media would have you believe history began on 9-11-01.

I suggest you do some reading on the US/UK interventions in places such as Iran in 1953. You would be suprised to know that our "team" has not always worn the "white cowboy hat."

Lets take the streets and make peace. Those who want to tear shit up ought to go ahead and sign up to go to war because that kind of belligerance is just what the military is looking for in its young recruits.

Its righteous to be angry. Its righteous to want revolution. But the only revolution that will get us out of this cycle is a non-violent one. Direct your anger in a productive way, not a destructive way.

Lets be loud and creative and in the streets!

Diversity of tactics is fine, but NOT when there are hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, some of whom are more vulnerable than others. In this situation non-violent action is the only way to respect all participants.

If you want to tear shit up, do it on your own time.

When this movement reaches critical mass it will change the world. Keep the faith.

Report From Chicago:
This is the Mid West; "heart land of America", not Berkeley California. No commute is possible without seeing some cars with Anti War bumper stickers or seeing antiwar signs on lightpoles. Our city council voted an anti-war resolution. Our senator voted against the war. Personally, I don't know ONE person here who's for the war. Twice last week, driving to work, Protesters had a large anti war banners over the expressway, and it was a constant honking of horns (A CONSTANT HONKING OF HORNS!) in solidarity with them. Pulse of the people: no one is for this war. Any polls that say otherwise, are lying. So don't assume your cops, firemen, etc. are against you. They're probably on your side. Don't assume the rich are against you. That's what's wierd about this "peace movement", it's not like back in the Vietnam days: the "hard hats" against the "hippies". The "hard hats" and the "hippies" as well as the executives are against this war. Bus loads of anti war Chicagoans went to DC last month. Bus loads of anti war Chiagoans will be in NYC next weekend. Americans DO NOT want this war.

from Germany:

a long time ago you helped us building a democraty.
March now and in the future and whenever you want to.
You don´t need permissions from anyone !!!
You have to fight for democraty, otherwise your land will need help, someday....
(Sorry for bad english)

I just read about what happens in NY and I hope all of
you would march in one line despite the police at
15th of Februrary
so there will be a big cheer for peace all over the world that day.

Yours
Heidi Kraft from Germany

Good Luck on your demo--I can't help feeling though, that Bush will order a pre-emptive strike before the 15th as opposition to this war becomes overwhelmingly obvious. Bush and Blair have shown how they can use our democracies to effect state fascism--or maybe now it should be called an elitists' oligarchy. I feel the fat of fascism congealing around the free world as we watch the actions of warmongering Laurel and Hardy preparing us for another thousand-year Reich--'The New World Order'.
God help us.
John Weston

Hallo,

this is a voice from Germany. This day, the 15th of February 2003, will be a great one for peace and all the people all over the world. Thousands of people in our country will demonstrate in Berlin, to show you and women and men of all the other demonstrations in many other countries of the world, that we stay together in our strong will, not to let the world destroy by some wild governments of our planet. Hope we will succeed. We have to.
Hans Koenig-Losch

The peace movement is growing all over the globe; that's what war-waging governments and medias want to hide.

I am an American working in the German peace movement at this time. It is great to see that the U.S. is in solidarity with the European movement on Feb 15th. Keep up the good work!

Good morning,

we need peace to solve problems.
Weapons (bilogical, chemical) might still not be any more in Irak - the same as Know-How. Walls of Bagdad may turn-as surface in 1991.

Men and woman in Exil will not let murder their sons and daughters...
In pain their is the big danger to create world-wide terrorism, mixed from Hamas, Al-Quida and Irak.
We need United Nations as institution to respekt all the nations and their culture/way of life. Let them -as long they don`t cause danger to others. Drug-war is chemical political war.
Further, conflict in Israel/Palastine and Irak is to solve -in peace. There are possibilities.
11. September did not have to be, but now we should go to solve problems instead of creating new ones - which will get out of control. Time and "surface"/room is not "in an ending -in one window".
Germans have further to analyse nazi-terror- to help Israel.

The university of Oldenburg will at least be with two busses in Berlin tomorrow-to protest and show their coincidence with the "mirage plan/projekt". United nations solved problems like or comparing to this until 1998 and they will go on. It is a long but we think now "the" way.
Buchner described in a poem: way : go and after the next curve you see the next step.

I don`t like these mass-marchings as going on in modern world (culural problems in the nazi times and...), but this now what is to do tomorrow.

In political meetings (Friedrich Naumann Stiftung) there is agreement to the view, that there will come terrorism, as the world and Germany has not seen until now, if Irak gets bombed.
Think of the soul you projekt material (German Materie) on-you connect and you, as the terrorists of september 11., will have to explain what you have done -to this soul.

America might be on one one hand "more free" because they seperated from the kept culural ghosts of the continent. On the other hand their culture is grown up by murdering other thinking cultures: the indigena population. Are they (some) so agressive , because these connections (the murdered souls/people) are not in peace? They did not care?

Don`t play god , as the bible says. You will fall.


Greetings from Germany,
(I still don`t know how to begin and end a letter officially. Excuse me.)
M. Muller

Mail:  mareike.mueller@nwn.de

Good morning,

we need peace to solve problems.
Weapons (bilogical, chemical) might still not be any more in Irak - the same as Know-How. Walls of Bagdad may turn-as surface in 1991.

Men and woman in Exil will not let murder their sons and daughters...
In pain their is the big danger to create world-wide terrorism, mixed from Hamas, Al-Quida and Irak.
We need United Nations as institution to respekt all the nations and their culture/way of life. Let them -as long they don`t cause danger to others. Drug-war is chemical political war.
Further, conflict in Israel/Palastine and Irak is to solve -in peace. There are possibilities.
11. September did not have to be, but now we should go to solve problems instead of creating new ones - which will get out of control. Time and "surface"/room is not "in an ending -in one window".
Germans have further to analyse nazi-terror- to help Israel.

The university of Oldenburg will at least be with two busses in Berlin tomorrow-to protest and show their coincidence with the "mirage plan/projekt". United nations solved problems like or comparing to this until 1998 and they will go on. It is a long but we think now "the" way.
Buchner described in a poem: way : go and after the next curve you see the next step.

I don`t like these mass-marchings as going on in modern world (culural problems in the nazi times and...), but this now what is to do tomorrow.

In political meetings (Friedrich Naumann Stiftung) there is agreement to the view, that there will come terrorism, as the world and Germany has not seen until now, if Irak gets bombed.
Think of the soul you projekt material (German Materie) on-you connect and you, as the terrorists of september 11., will have to explain what you have done -to this soul.

America might be on one one hand "more free" because they seperated from the kept culural ghosts of the continent. On the other hand their culture is grown up by murdering other thinking cultures: the indigena population. Are they (some) so agressive , because these connections (the murdered souls/people) are not in peace? They did not care?

Don`t play god , as the bible says. You will fall.


Greetings from Germany,
(I still don`t know how to begin and end a letter officially. Excuse me.)
M. Muller

Mail:  mareike.mueller@nwn.de

Good morning,

we need peace to solve problems.
Weapons (bilogical, chemical) might still not be any more in Irak - the same as Know-How. Walls of Bagdad may turn-as surface in 1991.

Men and woman in Exil will not let murder their sons and daughters...
In pain their is the big danger to create world-wide terrorism, mixed from Hamas, Al-Quida and Irak.
We need United Nations as institution to respekt all the nations and their culture/way of life. Let them -as long they don`t cause danger to others. Drug-war is chemical political war.
Further, conflict in Israel/Palastine and Irak is to solve -in peace. There are possibilities.
11. September did not have to be, but now we should go to solve problems instead of creating new ones - which will get out of control. Time and "surface"/room is not "in an ending -in one window".
Germans have further to analyse nazi-terror- to help Israel.

The university of Oldenburg will at least be with two busses in Berlin tomorrow-to protest and show their coincidence with the "mirage plan/projekt". United nations solved problems like or comparing to this until 1998 and they will go on. It is a long but we think now "the" way.
Buchner described in a poem: way : go and after the next curve you see the next step.

I don`t like these mass-marchings as going on in modern world (culural problems in the nazi times and...), but this now what is to do tomorrow.

In political meetings (Friedrich Naumann Stiftung) there is agreement to the view, that there will come terrorism, as the world and Germany has not seen until now, if Irak gets bombed.
Think of the soul you projekt material (German Materie) on-you connect and you, as the terrorists of september 11., will have to explain what you have done -to this soul.

America might be on one one hand "more free" because they seperated from the kept culural ghosts of the continent. On the other hand their culture is grown up by murdering other thinking cultures: the indigena population. Are they (some) so agressive , because these connections (the murdered souls/people) are not in peace? They did not care?

Don`t play god , as the bible says. You will fall.


Greetings from Germany,
(I still don`t know how to begin and end a letter officially. Excuse me.)
M. Muller

Mail:  mareike.mueller@nwn.de

Humanity Says NO !!!

Our leaders were elected to speak in OUR names, not in their own names.

Let us show our leaders tomorrow that WE (Humanity) say NO !!!

"The solution is easy:
Only a world of justice is a world of safety.
Only a world of safety is a world of peace.
But is that what our leaders really want?"

PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND ist all I ask.

SAN

P.S. Now march till your feet drop of New York :))

It would be a shame not to allow the demonstration, as demonstrations are a platform for democracy

BZ

Good morning on Sunday,

we talked in Berlin with someones to send e-mails to the christian church.
A Chatolic priest moaned in Bagdad, when visiting the church there, "no one really does anything".
Priest and Papst go to bagdad personally and check in - maybe perhaps in hotels. Suggestion.
There would be humans, me including, going with them (if beiing able to pay airplanes and hotels, talking with their firms to be free for that) to stand personally in bagdad and say: No. Goes a soldier against his/hers beliefs? not imaginable.?
Save our and their souls.
Irakis also think chemical and bilogical material, as know- how is not still/any longer in Irak. We think the persons whom gave your government inforamation left as the officilas (about 10 days) maybe 4 weeks before.?
They wait, earth turns and only two "achses/german Matrix " in logical programm does not deal enough at all with reality.


From germany,
M. Muller

oil is the only reason for this war.
oil is the only reason for this war!
oil is the reason for this war.
USA is consuming about 25 % of the whole world oil production.
Please check this and don´t waste oil.
Then you will know why Bush & co want this war against iraq, it is all about oil.
You should get more responsible of energy.

Best Wishes

Hi,

we had already contact and to show you what is going on here I tried to import my datas from discette - but I could not work out.
To say: Peace-activists are going to work with the churches - to maybe show presence (?) in Irak himself to diskuss and protect and save until end of march (aircraftcarriers are expected to go on dock in April) - if this formes out as to be realistic.
We think at least one in the US needs good - and without re-projection- therapy and without any "Hetze" (english word?) -what might be the biggest fear.



From germany,
M. Muller

 mareike.mueller@nwn.de



From here Good afternoon,
M. Muller

Hi,

I got a meil from:  alexlli650846561@bigfoots.com.
As I did not have jet digital identitty answering was difficult. Last ones came totally back.
To inform: This computerwork firm wants data security and no customers from washington.
In The US (Normally they do it in Germany/Europe also)you give your name when you buy your computer. To the name relates a number of the article and then the ID of the computer and the checking datas. Data security is obligate, but not for inner and outer security (national security). They can by this way find the way to your computer center. I think there is a special programm including. In germany it is public that they can worldwide overlook computers and mails. (German police have to catch the PC itself.)
I am not shure if your security programms by downloading are enough. (There went one.)Here in germany Windows -XP is not perfect: You are asked to give a fault report and with this you give the inner datas information, as they always ask you for your computer-ID when you go to the service-center.
This to inform. I send this fault report about three weeks before, in intention to send and to give maybe people possibility to look over their borderlines. It is data and information transfair on this plein.

Allexli and so on might now better understand. I thougth I might have catched this contact because of my mails to your address. I now will in a time work on this inner data process- with someone from whom I hope he learned this in his informatic studies. Information might still help.
And I have the starting of psychological diskussions with arabs, whom I informed about this data insecurity some months ago. (The aim was not have immediately police actions and so on but to reach for their mind before it start to loaf(german "vergammeln")and to stop this procedure. To insure, if a would know that there would be danger soon for others (and themselves) I would contact and inform authorities. Further: I heard months ago when someones tried several times to go on my computer in the night. The cable "buzzes". I sleep in the same room as the computer and the trying was obviously. (I do not know if they got in. The night time might relate to America - or to others.)
And: They need internet cable and electricity. (Later maybe only electricitry.)
The arabs need trust. They would not cooperate beeing manipulated. And I do not want to manipulate.

Further: I reed in the moment (My salary went yesterday.) the book of Hatfield about Bush. "Fortunate Son" was taken out of commerce in the US. In Germany and in the United Kingdom it is buyable.
Interesting: In germany we have reports about nuclear "clouds", caused by the testing bombs in Nevada. They reached up until New-York. In germany there was alot science when we had Tschernobil.
In Germany there is a long movement against atomic power and it is well known that radioactivity causes cancer: especially "Laukamie" to children and old people. The sister Robin of Bush got this desease at the age of three and the family lived at this time in Texas which should be not to far from Nevada?
Opening eyes for your own suffering people might help to protect others.
And: In Irak and everywhere (US) : Do you reach something with offending or insulting someone or someones?
I mean: Througing obsence words around makes the fronts even more hard.
Very interesting book -it is.
The peace acticities here are a bit slow- lets see.

From germany,
and maybe greetings to alexlli (Last mails come back totally.),

M. Muller

Do you know what happened this week back in 1850?
California became a state.
The state had no electricity.
The State had no money.
Almost everyone spoke Spanish.
There were gun fights in the streets.
So basically,
it was just like California today,
only the women had real tits.

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