Thank you for this photo. Truly this is a master propaganda campaign that has dupped a whole nation and perhaps most of the world.

Geeze, I am so disgusted right now...I jsut want to burn the news media. Here is an idea...take TV's and smash them at CNN headquarters. This is disgusting.

contact local news stations and alert them that we are hip to this propaganda. That BBC released photos showing that the "rejoicing" was not widespread and that the statue incident had only a few peopel there. Tell them you are disgusted by their misrepresentation in Baghdad today.

selective coverage.

Maybe the rest are still just a tad afraid of the tyrant that demonstrators really should have been protesting against for the last 12 years! It's not Bush's fault we're there, it's the people who did nothing to stop ths evil dictator. Maybe our former leader was too busy with his intern to be bothered!

Let this picture remind all of us how dangerous and effective propoganda can be in the wrong hands. Think about how effective a picture like this was in duping mainstream media that the Holocaust actually happened. If only a few brave sould had resisted back then, the world would know the truth about how members of the Zionist movement in 1943 actually killed their own members of "the tribe" and blamed the Germans. Now we have a Zionist state that is behind 9/11...what't will they do next?

yeah just like when both the shi'ites AND the kurds rebelled against saddam during the last GW in '91 after that other bush told them too. and then the coalition forces just sat there and watched as the republican guard went and killed all the silly iraqis who stood up to saddam.

they were so silly to trust daddy george bush!

This "article" courtesy of Baghdad Bob.


We knew the Leftists were going to go into overload, but JEEZ!

I see what you are pointing out with your comparison of the two pics. I doubt that this event was "staged", as you claim. The soldier that first hung the US flag over Saddam's head must not have read his script very well. The flag symbol, we are know, is not encouraged or allowed to be trumpeted in Iraq and that soldier probably took a tongue lashing as a result. I am unable to comment on why the TV pictures showed some pretty happy people..must have been the camera angle? Boy, that PR work is good. Did you hear the reporter that checked out the room that the two journalist died in? He said that there were US tanks in the area, but the tank would have had to shoot around a corner to hit that room. We are good, but I doubt that we are that good. The BBC refused to show that toppling of the statue of Saddam...now that's good reporting. They must have learned that from the Arab channels.

I dunno, but I was watching the footage live on 4 webcams (2 raw feeds plus AlJazeera and Abu Dhabi) and TV, and there were at least 100 Iraqis there. Plus, I count 68 without even counting that crowd in your picture. The crowd is also tightly packed, and I'd say there were dozens around the statue itself. I'd go as far as to say that all the people in the photo participated or cheered to some degree, as I watched for several hours. Also, people came and went throughout the afternoon. Probably dozens and dozens hit Saddam's likeness with their shoes, a strong insult in the Muslim world. The only people I heard complaining were: one Western woman yelling at and berating the soldiers while civilians celebrated in the square and her boyfriend yelling "Yankees go home." Otherwise, nothing but celebration. Note though that all the celebrators were Shiite Muslims.

I think we'd have to be stupid to not see Bush, Rumsfeld, et al needed some good PR at this point, a nice symbolic photo-op that they could pontificate about. This was so clearly staged it was sickening. Plus, the Iraquis would cheer and wave the flag of anyone who invaded them, hoping to not be killed, I'm sure. The Shiites will cheer the downfall of the minority Sunnis, who've been in power; the Kurds have always fought the Sunnis, as well, so would no doubt cheer - and then say, "Now get out". And the Sunnis are afraid of reprisals now from both the Shiites and the Kurds, so they might well cheer the troops that can protect them.

We've been hijacked, face it. And they're still pulling the strings on some of the Sheeple, who are buying this Bush rush to Hell as though it's a new brand of detergent. I guess it's not easy for a real American to face the fact that their media is now a propaganda arm of an illegal WH. Americans have a deep and complicated relationship with their TV sets. TV lying to them? Some people's denial is thick and deep.

Every carefully orchestrated photo-op will be calculated to find reason and sanity for a "Blitzkrieg" in which there was little or no opposition. When the truth becomes clear with the settling of the Iraqi sands, what will need to be explained is "Where is Saddam, and hs weapons of mass destruction?"

Let's just line that statue up with the figurative statue of Usama Bin Ladin, and chalk up the second mideast war to "Get our man!", and came out with a handful of sand. . . or just perhaps some black gold for the Bush's, Rumfelds, and Halliburtons.

Sorry for my bad English writing but the followings are my thoughts....

This invasion is finished by a cooporation of both Saddam and Bush via a strongly persuded by the EU (especailly the France President who plays the key role).

Stop it. or you both will lose more!

Saddam ran away with the Russian embassadore convoy four days ago. Howmany the Russians in the embassy? and how come the convoy included more than 20 cars?

Why didn't the U.S. soldiers put up their American flag all over Baghdad while on the first at the border town they put down the Iraqis flag and put the American flag on (after seizing)? How come the American soldiers become nice guy just three weeks passed by?

How come in the last four days the EU palyed the biggest role and strongly suggest that the U.N. and E.U. will become the major media for Iraqi renovation?

How come Bush did not declare the victory last night? Why it was Dick Cheney? Don't you think this moron wouldn't enjoy such kind of the completed victory? Or suddenly he become a different Bush?

How come there was no real fighting on both sides in the last four days? The real military action was just shooting the journalists on Tuesday.

The IRNA.com of the Iranian reported at lunch time yesterday that there was no Iraqi soldiers and police in Baghdad since Wesnesday morning. And why the Americans waited until 5 p.m. to run into the city? Or just to let the Iraqi fighters ran away or changed their clothes?

Aljazeera called up the Moscow last night asking if they took Saddam with them? (The Aljazeera noticed this as well) Surely, the Russian said NO.

Just keep thinking about this. I then think there is no real victory in this invasion. They just cooperated at the end!

After both the Grenada invasions and the Panama invasion, grafitti appeared in those countries saying "God bless America" and "Thank you, President Reagan" or "Thank you, President Bush." These photos were carried in full-color in Time and Newsweek. However, an acquaintance with ties to Grenada told me that the grafitti in Grenada, at least, were put up by "white men in vans."

I'm just waiting for the "God Bless America" grafitti to turn up in Iraq.

pass the tinfoil hats
if there are any left here

Andy, it is obvious you have done nothing in your live except watch Fox news or read right wing disinformation. Your attitude and outlook on not only history but life in general makes it quite obvious you cannot create a single thought by yourself. You are the weakest person I have ever read on a site and I just wish you had the balls to actually live what you spew. It is also obvious you have never put yourself in any type of harms way or volunteered for anything more than paying for a round at the bar. If you had put yourself in harms way for your thoughts or values I an certain you would have a different point of view. A point of view anybody other than yourself could even think about validating. You are the main reason Fox and rush do so well, mindless sheeple that simply follow what they are told. Remember the fear of information gathering under Clinton, well this administration is increasing that monitoring 100 fold and guess what? All that information will be available to the next DEMOCRAIC administration when this one is gone. Thanks for supporting this information gathering and don't forget to look over your shoulder when democrats are in power again. What comes around goes around Andy! Think about that you dumb ass

Click the article below for ther proof that Chalabi's INC Crew was behind yesterday's Baghdad Bush Blast.

 http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=17554&forum=DCForumID66

How can we end this horrendous march through the middle-east reminiscent of the shock and awing Blitzkrieg?
My heart is a flame...

Not Andy, i could not have said it better myself. Thanks

grasping for any tiny hope that "W" has not proven you all to be wrong wrong wrong????
Bush wins.....He shows courage...he shows insight......the anti-war left is left looking stupid again......ha ha ha....

normally the mainstream media underreports numbers of anti-war protestors, here there is an overreporting

A BETTER WAY TO STOP THE WAR (NON-VIOLENT).

One very good way to stop the war against Iraq is to put the spotlight of the main justification for the use of American force, that is, the events of September 11. Showing the utter stupidity of the media's "official line" on 9-11, will have a huge effect on the way things pan out.

HAVE YOUR SAY CONCERNING 9-11.

The following is a list of Talk Boards and some threads where you can discuss 9-11.

WWW.LIBERTYFORUM.ORG

I have never heard of anyone being banned from this Talk Board.

THE AMERICAN MEDIA HAS LIED TO YOU ABOUT 9-11.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=401931&vc=1&t=-1
ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS DELIBERATELY DEMOLISHED.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=429495&vc=1&t=-1
EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=356126&vc=1&t=-1
BENJAMIN FREEDMAN PREDICTED 9-11 IN 1961, PRESCIENT EH?
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=432343&vc=1&t=-1
MANY 9-11 "HIJACKERS" ARE STILL ALIVE AND WELL.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=355906&vc=1&t=-1
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS COLLAPSE AS AN ENORMOUS INSURANCE SCAM.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=419014&vc=1&t=-1
CHAPTERS ONE AND TWO FROM HUFSCHMID'S BOOK ON 9-11: PAINFUL QUESTIONS
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=431167&vc=1&t=-1
THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=458068&vc=1&t=-1
THE FEMA REPORT ON WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 COLLAPSE IS A TOTAL JOKE. The long version (the whole FEMA report).
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=429216&vc=1&t=-1
THEY LIED TO YOU ABOUT WORLD TRADE CENTER SEVEN. The short version.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=411793&vc=1&t=-1
DOWNLOAD 16 MEGABYTES OF PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON 9-11.
 http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=412075&vc=1&t=-1

911PI.COM

911pi.com is a hoax. It is more about hiding the truth about 9-11, than finding it.
You will have to read this farcical site to decide for yourself.
The people running the site feel that they can change or delete posts at will.
This site is a very sad JOKE and an insult to those killed on September 11, 2001.

THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS COLLAPSE AS AN ENORMOUS INSURANCE SCAM.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=9186066442
EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=2976066442
THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=6376066442
THE OFFICIAL EXPLANATION FOR THE WTC COLLAPSE IS A LIE
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=3076066442
PROOF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS DELIBERATELY DEMOLISHED.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=6566066442
THE FEMA REPORT ON THE WTC 7 COLLAPSE IS A TOTAL JOKE.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=1266066442
CHAPTERS ONE AND TWO FROM HUFSCHMID'S BOOK ON 9-11: PAINFUL QUESTIONS
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=3656027821&m=2986066442
32,000 TONS OF STEEL OF STEEL MISSING FROM EACH OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS?
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=5486005642
MEDIA RELEASES FAKED PHOTOGRAPHS OF EXPLOSION AT PENTAGON.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=6506002841&m=7896004742
GRAPHICAL EXPLANATION OF THE PROBLEM AT THE PENTAGON.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=3676046741&m=7236054742
CHAPTER 1. INTRODUCTION TO THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY (FEMA) REPORT ON WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSE.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=1256005642
THE FULL FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY (FEMA) REPORT ON THE COLLAPSE OF WORLD TRADE CENTER SEVEN.
 http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=&f=9606022231&m=3056005642

WWW.DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.COM

Expect to be banned from this Talk Board.

 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5502.html FEMA REPORT ON THE WTC7
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5508.html MANY OF THE 9-11 "HIJACKERS" ARE STILL ALIVE.
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5513.html PROOF THE WTC WAS DEMOLISHED.
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5503.html THE TRUSS THEORY OF COLLAPSE.
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5507.html EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE WTC COLLAPSE.

LIST OF ARTICLES ON 9-11.

Download the entire www.nerdcities.com/guardian site as one 16 MB file.

Click Here  http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/guardian20jan03.tgz to download the file. Click Here  http://dc.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/guardian20jan03.tgz if the first link is down.

Then open it with WinZip (Microsoft) tar -zxf (Unix) or Stuffit (Apple). Click Here For Help.  http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/help.htm

September the Eleventh 2001.

9-11 The World Trade Center.

The World Trade Center Demolition 740 KB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/wtc-demolition.htm
or Here  http://www.thepowerhour.com/911-nerdcities/World%20Trade%20Center%20Demolition.htm
Evidence of Explosives In The South Tower Collapse. 300 KB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/south-tower.htm
Chapter 1 of the FEMA WTC Report: Introduction (with comment) 850 KB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch1.htm
or Here  http://indymedia.no/print.php?id=4991
Chapter 2 of the FEMA WTC Report: The Twin Towers (with comment) 1.9 MB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch2.htm
or Here  http://www.thepowerhour.com/911-nerdcities/Chapter%202%20-%20The%20WTC%20Report.htm
Chapter 5 of the FEMA WTC Report: World Trade Center Seven (with comment) 1.3 MB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch5.htm
or Here  http://victoria.indymedia.org/print.php?id=11467
Microsoft Software used to simulate the crash of a Boeing 747 into the World Trade Center.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/wtc-microsoft.htm
University of California, Berkeley Professor, Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl Testifies.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/astaneh-wtc.htm
Table Of Contents for the FEMA World Trade Center Report.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_toc.htm
Chapter 3 of the WTC Report: WTC 3.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch3.htm
Chapter 6 of the WTC Report: Bankers Trust Building.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch6.htm
Structural Steel and Steel Connections.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_apndxB.htm Appendix B of the WTC-Report:
Appendix D of the WTC-Report: WTC Steel Data Collection.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_apndxD.htm
The World Trade Center 7 Explosion Myth.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/Seven/fake-explosion.htm
Photographic Evidence that they Lied About the Trusses
or Here  http://arizona.indymedia.org/print.php?id=6750
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/they-lied-about-trusses.htm
The Jet Fuel; How hot did it heat the World Trade Center?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/how-hot.htm
Proof the Twin Towers were Deliberately Demolished.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/proof.htm

9-11 The Pentagon.

A Detailed Analysis of whether or not a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon 1.4 MB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/WhatHitThePentagon
or Here  http://www.thepowerhour.com/911-nerdcities/American%20Airlines%20Flight%2077.htm
Photos of Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon are a Complete and Utter Fabrication.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/WhatHitThePentagon/explosion.htm
The Bijlmer Crash - Joe Vialls - Caught in a Lie.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Bijlmer
Carol A. Valentine Article Completely Wrong.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Valentine
The Strange Case of the Sports Utility Vehicle at the Pentagon.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/Oddity
How the size of the plane in the "explosion" photo was calculated.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/PlaneSize/
The Essence of the Problem.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Pentagon/essence-of-problem.htm

9-11 The Response, Or Rather, Lack Of It.

Air National Guard Mission And Vision Statement.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/ang-mission.htm
An example of Air National Guard efficency.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/ang-example.htm
Where was NORAD on September Eleven?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/norad.htm

9-11 Other.

Stranger Than Fiction (from www.whatreallyhappened.com) 600 KB
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/STF/stranger-than-fiction.htm
Evidence that the Arabs are Not to blame for the WTC attack.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/arabs-not-to-blame.htm
Seismic Waves Generated by Aircraft Impacts and Building Collapses at the WTC.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/Seismic/WTC_LDEO_KIM.htm
Seismic Observations during the September 11, 2001, Terrorist Attack.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/Seismic/WTC_PENT_KIM.htm
Many of the 9-11 hijackers are still alive.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/hijackers-alive.htm
Israelis arrested on suspicion of 9-11 involvement.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/israelis-arrested-9-11.htm
Interesting facts about the World Trade Center.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/wtc-facts.htm
Sept 11th - Unanswered Questions By MalcontentX.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/SeptemberEleventh/unanswered-9-11.htm
Collection of Eric Hufschmid's early articles.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Hufschmid/index.html
Chapters One and Two from Eric Hufschmid's book Painful Questions (with comment)
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Hufschmid/PainfulQuestions_1.htm
or Here  http://alberta.indymedia.org/print.php?id=5696

PALESTINE.

Some Facts About Palestine.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/facts.htm
Listing and Map of Towns and Villages Ethnically Cleansed/Destroyed by the Jews.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/destroyed-towns.htm
More on the Towns and Villages Ethnically Cleansed/Destroyed by the Jews.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/cleansed-towns.htm
Listing and Map of Land Ownership In Palestine In 1947.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/stolen-land.htm
Brief articles on the 1948, 1956 and 1967 wars started by Israel.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/some-wars.htm
Time line of the Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in the 1948 war.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/conquest-timeline.htm
Brief article on the Israeli attempt to ignite a civil war in Lebanon.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/civil-war.htm
Arafat calls for democratic elections in the United States.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/arafat-elections.htm
America should fight minorities and aliens the way Israel does!
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/apartheid-israeli-style.htm
The Day Israel Deliberately Killed 34 American Sailors.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/uss-liberty.htm
Brief article on Israeli apartheid.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/israeli-apartheid.htm
Israel wins Huge Victory.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/israeli-victory.htm
Is Israel a Democracy?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/democracy.htm
Some Israeli War Criminals.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/war-criminals.htm
Some articles on the War Criminal Sharon.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/sharon.htm
The War Criminal Sharon. The Long Version.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/sharon-crime-history.htm
The Chinese claim California as a Confucian Homeland.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/california.htm
God gave the Jews New York.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/new-york.htm
The Genocidal God of the Jews.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/genocidal-god.htm
Some Zionist Fairy Tales.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/zionist-fairy-tales.htm
Israel mugs the Palestinians.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/israel-mugs-pals.htm
Muslims base their claim to Palestine on History.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/moslem-claim.htm
Jewish Terrorism.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm
Jewish Terrorism targeting the British.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/terror-against-british.htm
Online Books about Palestine and the Jews.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/resources.htm
What you can do if you care.
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/Palestine/what-u-can-do.htm

OTHER:

Why did the US develop the Space Shuttle when the Saturn 5 is so much better?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/OtherThreads/shuttle.htm
Why is the US developing the Delta rockets when the Saturn 5 is so much better?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/OtherThreads/delta.htm
Why is no one allowed to question the Holocaust?
 http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/OtherThreads/holocaust.htm

In my own mind, I see a picture of Saddam, and then a picture of Bush -- and I think: "one down, one to go."

On 60 Minutes II tonight, some people in Basra, referring to their conditions since America invaded, cried out: "This is worse than Saddam!"

Well, that's exactly how the AMERICAN people really feel about Bush. Even though the media are trashing Michael Moore and the Dixie Chicks, all of whom rightfully say they are ashamed of George Bush, their sales are SOARING. I think those are the ACCURATE POLLS of how Americans feel about George Dumya Bush.

REGIME CHANGE IN AMERICA! -- IMPEACH BUSH NOW!

Even skeptics of U.S. policies sometimes have no clue as to the depths of depravity these USA war criminals go to invent and broadcast their damned War Lies.

Thank you again for tracking this contrived photo-op, which the corporate media have opportunistically & repeatedly shown on worldwide TV in order to create the impression of a "popular uprising" by the people of Iraq.

I noted that we here in England had the budget date changed to coincide with the pulling down of the statue While Gordon Brown was giving the good news to the people The Statue was about to be brought down.This was stage managed Propaganda my friends, and any well informed person was not fooled.

I was going to say that I am shocked but the truth is I am not, for we muslims have seen this bias coming for years now and when we would mention it to our friends and colleagues they would look at you with the look that says "oh Dear the papers are right All muslims are brain washed with conspiracy theories "

For All those intrested pls note that Iraqi were Saying "LAILAHA ILLALAH SADAAM UR RASOOLALAH"
where they actually saying it or it was Dubbed it is shocking because what it means is "There is no God but ALLAH and sadam is a prophet" which in islam thoughts is incorrect any way.

People will not believe this pic.. American and British supporters of the war will view the empty square as a pic that has been doctored ...unlike the people of Bagdad dying in hospitals all over town.

My guess is this handful of iraqis were brought in from another part of the country. Notice also the roadblocks and soldiers placed to keep everyone else out. It was a brilliant piece of propaganda. So much so even the Iraqi ambassador to the UN probably believed it. Really sad that reporters just can't report the news instead of feeding us disinformation all the time. I don't think that is what freedom of the press is all about. It's getting to the point that you have to believe the opposite of what you hear in order to get the truth. The press is just a tool of the elite government and we are not worthy of knowing the truth. What is freedom?

This blatant propaganda is insulting to our intelligence and it makes me furious that so many people swallow this. If America wants an uprising, what about an uprising of those of us that see through their lies, their hypocrisy and their disgusting propaganda. I'd feel that the world was a much safer place if the Bush administration was toppled, never mind Saddam's regime. I can't watch the TV/radio news anymore because it makes me see the with it's fiction.

eat my shit ;o)

Have you people lost all touch with reality? I have to admit I'm utterly flabergasted at this site. I wonder if you anti-war, America hating, tree huggers realize your aligning yourself with people that don't believe the holocaust happened. ???? Sheesh! How can you expect anyone to take you seriously? Stop being such poor losers. I am an American and I have never met an Iraqi in my life, but I have to admit I was almost brought to tears when I saw all the images of an oppressed people being given a chance to be free. Do you people hate America so much that you can't be happy for them? I know civilians died but as long as we live in this world evil will live on and freedom will require the ultimate sacrifice. Just as our ancestors shed their blood so too have the Iraqi people. And they should be honored and memoralized as Iraqi patriots. I guess here there are too many people who take what we have for granted and in other countries they are just angry because we are the most powerful country on the planet. Does anybody think that the reason for that is because maybe we have done something right? I also know that our goverment is not perfect and we have done things that are not right, but please show me one that is. I'd love to visit this utopian society. We live in an imperfect world filled with imperfect people, but we still strive the best we can to make this world the best it can be. No other country has expended more resources and shed more blood for this cause than us. As well it should be because like I said we are the most powerful and therefore bare most of the responsibility to ensure that this happens. Goodbye Hitler, Stalin, Mousalini, and now Saddam. May he rest in pieces. God Bless the Iraqi people. They have their country back now and may they live in peace, freedom, and hope!

I sat up (till about 2 AM Sydney time) and watched the 'amazing' event LIVE!

The crowd that had gathered was very modest....a few people wander up to the square during
the pulldown, mostly to watch from a distance, but it never amounts to anything like a big crowd,
which is what the news media SUGGEST. The BBC's Ragee Omar was perhaps the most excited person there. His own anchorman had to bring him back to earth, pointing out that a long shot of the scene
showed only a small crowd. The process of pulling down the statue was comic - the USMC engineer vehicle's crew (it looks to me like a M88 Armoured Recovery Vehicle-built on a tank chassis, it's job is to unditch or recover other AFV's.) first attached a cable to Big Bad Saddam, and while Ragee Omar breathlessly commentated- "it's coming....it's coming....this is it...it's coming down..." they reversed the vehicle, pulling the cable taut
and.........grinding their gears. Nothing.(possibly the Marines were concerned also that a cable of that length might snap and scythe through some recently liberated Iraqis). Ragee Omar blathers on: "Uh...it doesn't seemed to have worked" Another attempt is then made, this time with the Marines using the A-frame
of their vehicle, which, leant up against Big Bad Saddam, is easy to use as a ladder, and several Marines
clamber up it, to attach the the A-frame's hook and cable to the statue. Then it got really weird....one of the Marines puts the Stars n' Stripes over the statue's face. I heard the Iraqi emigre that the BBC had as a
studio guest mutter "oh no" and even Ragee could see it was a monumental blunder. Anyway, maybe someone in the White House Bunker, watching TV, made a call...because the Marines went back up
the A-frame, and passed Old Glory back down. Just as this happened, a little smoke drifted by in the backround,and the contrast made the tableaux suddenly clear.....the Marines, clinging to the A-frame of their vehicle, were like men climbing a mountain, except they were climbing DOWN, and bringing the Flag with them. It was Iwo Jima in reverse.

At last we can now look forward to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction being displayed.

As a bonus maybe some Iraqi government archives will confirm beyond all doubt that Saddam was hand-in-glove with Al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups.

How ridiculous. All anti-war protesters would love the Iraqi people to be happy and free- our argument is that there are other ways to go about it rather than bomb the living daylights out of those very oppressed and innocent civilians with the kind of weapons your lobotomised president is whining about. Britain managed to negotiate the disarmament of the IRA after decades of terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland and Britain (funded mostly by Irish Americans I hasten to add)...and we never thought disarmament would be possible there. There was no hurry for such murderous action - Israel have been oppressing and bombing the Palestinians for the last 25yrs and has WMD - but because it's not in the US interest (ie America is Israel's gimp), they leave it alone. Don't fool yourself as to the real reasons for this war...and if we're making comparisons to Hitler & co - the only similarities I see are with George W Bush. All he's missing is a dodgy moustache. He's a disgrace to humanity and he makes me sick.

A luck this picture not being from a French origine ... it would immediately seen as false ... as, once again, French opposition to american will ...
In fact French media didn't even dare to say one word against the US; not to be be taxed of anti americanism they just follow the official US version of the facts ...
Without reading a post on the Independant Forum where this link was, I would have never known ...
Thanks the Brits, once more ;-)

I'm polish and I can remember in the 80s & 70s, how Polish TV news, was showing big gatherings and events in "support of communist goverment. The "coalition" is desperate to show, that people of Iraq see them as liberators, and for some Iraqis I think are. Nevertheles vast majority sees "liberators" as ocupants and people are more scared of the US and UK armies, which only few hours ago, were bombing and killing their families and their sons, defending country in Iraq's Army. Showing some hundred or two hundred people, dancing on the streets of 5.5 milon metropolis, dose not produce convincing proof of support for what was done to these people over last 3 weeks and 12 years, by so called leading democracies of western civilization, time will tell.

You guys have wasted the net once agian in one of the most bullshit stupid and completely untrue news. Your infiltrating young stupid minds with this misinformation designed to hate the u.s and israel, no matter what they do. Do you actually beleive in what you say? do u even have evidence to support it, other than half based pictures? You can post as many edited pictures and make up as many meanings to them however you like. But you are only fooling the stupid. Bullshit propaganda for bullshit people.

Which ever country you live in, and take the democracy of western culture for granted. I hope you can feel all the torture and greif the civilians of Iraq have lived so long under, and then realise why a threat exists. And by the way.. try to watch some actual fair and balanced news and stop reading off crappy anti-west websites?

The great Iraqi's got their country back and we got their black gold.

PS. I was watching 60 Minutes II the other night and these Iraqi's were screaming into the camera "This is worse than being ruled by Saddam"

God it must be great to be freed by occupation.

Any of you who believe the spin created by this website are sad, pathetic little sheep... you really need to stop taking any information it gives you as fact, because little of it is true..it's just their twisted little spin on world events. And for the guy saying the Holocaust was just propoganda? oh, come on...I have no words to express how completely and utterly devoid on intelligence you must be. Someone should kill you before you multiply.

including propaganda.
Iraq is more than 7500 years old civilization. They have seen all types of invadors comes and go. What we saw at Firdous square of the dozen of Iraqis are the result of the 25 years of Saddam's output of Ba'ath party.
The hones Iraqis are as patient, and wise as their civilization.

I JUST READ THE ABOVE, ITS AMAZING BECAUSE JUST YESTERDAY I WAS SITTING WITH FRIENDS AND WE WERE THINKING THE SAME THING, BECAUSE IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE. IT LOOKS TOO EASY AND THE SHOTS ON TV ARENT TOO CONVINCIN ANY WAY. IM TALKING ABOUT THE ENGLISH MEDIA, THATS RIGHT IM FROM ENGLAND AND I CANT BELIEVE THE PRPAGANDA ON THE BBC NEWS CHANNEL. THEY ALSO SHOW INTERVIEWS WITH OTHER IRAQI'S WHO ARE CELEBRATING. BUT I HAVE BEEN HEARINGF THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE EITHER PAID, THREATENED OR ARE KURDISH.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. YOUR WEBSITE IS REALY INFORMATIVE.

Everyone is thinks the truth is our Zionist controlled media

Does anyone actually have any proof, I mean irrefutable proof that the holocaust isn't a fabrication, the fact is that neither of you has because you all take it for granted that it happened, the bigger the lie is the more lickely it is not to be notice. If you'd think a bit futher, it makes quite a bit of sense that some jews (althous most of them are loving people) made it up, they would benefit a hell of a lot from the feeling of guilt resulting in Europe. DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF THAT THE NAZIL HAD A PLAN ON A WIDE SCALE OF EXTERMINATION, no you don't. Of course they didn't like the jews and killed quite a few of them, discriminated them but didn't have a plan for extermination.

You people are pathetic.

I'd very much like to meet the creep and discuss his views. then I'll bury him in the nearest sewer where the rest of his kind live.

the point is not wether some people cheered or some didn't. the pojnt is not to justify the removal of Hussein. Obviously, there are many Iraqis who are relieved to get rid of Hussein.

The point here is that we have a minor incendent, composed of minor individual participation, with major US involvement that will now be used to paint the next chapter of World history - completely distorted, simplified, and biased. This is a prime example of how (and why) people believe that "history is doomed to repeat itself. Not so!!!

when the american flag went up I knew in my gut there was something psychologically manipulative and set up and that the comments of "we can't get a wide enough shot" were b.s.
Keep thinking for yourself and trusting your gut instincts.

Fuck me this is a site made for pricks like Pascal and Andy. What pathetic little worms those two scumbags are.
I'm not Jewish but to say the Holocast didn't happen? Your not a couple of anti-semetic wankers by any chance are you creeps. Please Pascal and Andy do the world a favour. Go away and slowly painfully die. If not I know a few organisations that would gladly locate you and do it for you.

I am a Cyberwriter, ex foreign service officer (15 yrs of service, North America and East Africa -- two yrs in Melbourne Oztralia when I was a kid et went to primaru school). I have been trying damn hard to convince my people in Indonesia what the CNN (neoCoNNetwork) and the (not all) Pentagon boys have been doing. Outright LIE! Just lasy Monday I posted my new article : DUSTA GENG BUSH DAN MEDIA TENTANG IRAK! (Bush's and the US major Media Lie On Iraq).
Just now I posted my new commentary: AFTER IRAQ, WHAT's NEXT? Sorry, it's in my language Bahasa Indonesia.You can read my year 2002 commentaries on  http://dataphone.se/~ahmad/opini.htm. I stopped watching the CNN. CNN sucks! Bravo to Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia. Best regards.

By the way, I am a graduate of Political Science (International Relations), and business and management in North America. Indonesia will be having another "party" i.e. the General Election in April 2004. Any interested parties wishing to report from Indonesia during the general election (expect another bloodshed as usual in many places), feel free to contact me.
Thank U.

JOE JUSSAC

Pascal and Andy. You half brained pair of scumbags. Do us all a favour and go die a painful death. Come to think of it all you creeps who believe the shit on this site need to die a painful death and do the world a favour.

Fucking steam roller all those anti-USA tree huggers.

GO GO USA
USA
USA
USA
USA

i watched this on CNN/BBC this morning, pretty much live. my flatmate of course was cheering and yahooing, as he does whenever the americans CNN claim are 'winning'. i was naturally suspicious, having done prior research on US foreign adventures...

also, to the guy/gal who complained that every country's leaders were like those of the US, please.... i live in New Zealand. We thumbed our noses at the US when they asked us to join the coalition of the killing. We did the same thing in the 80s when they asked us to accept their nuclear ships. its not that hard to say NO.

I wish more countries did it from time to time.

we learnt the exact same technique BBC/CNN used to make the crowd look large in first-year film school. Close ups at the climax, throw in a little drama (the US flag being hoisted) then a logical conclusion (dragged out of sight). Get a shot of a single child kicking the head for extra emotional impact.

then condense it all for the highlights package on the domestic 6 oclock news.

i agree with the person who said there's no way this can be compared to the relatively bloodless collapse of quasi-communist East germany/berlin. my friend has a t-shirt with uncle sam, and the phrase "Liberty - Or Else!!!!" I think that about sums it up...

-dan.
Waikato Students' Union (Hamilton, New Zealand)
 lunasparkmedia@hotmail.com or  ham4peace@hotmail.com

dont all you anti-USA anti-western freaks go and live in North Korea or that flea pit called Syria? I bet you all own your own homes,have jobs or fleecing the governments by being students and all have right of free speech in your respective free world countries. If it wasn't for the likes of America and Britain we'll all be speaking German and goose stepping up to our local high street.
Fucking hell theres even one tosser who is proud of his New Zealand government. Fucking New Zealand constantly in the shadow of the Aussies and not fit to lick a Kangaroos arse.

I am a Muslim, but I am NOT anti-Jews..the pious, non-TALMUDIC atheist Zionists. I had two good Jewish associates when I was overseas. For those who still in doubt that the holocaust did happen, type "BENJAMIN FREEDMAN", en ex Zionist who TOLD THE TRUTH about Zionism. Yes, the innocent Jews of Germany were butchered by HITLER's SS etc, but they were NOT 6 Million! Only around 600K. May Allah forgive those poor Jews.

Hitler et all did the mass killing for a reason, because the crooked Jews, the Ankhenazhi of Europe BETRAYED Germany when it (Hitelr) was offering ceasefire to the Brits. Long story, kindly read the famous STRANGER THAN FICTION and visit www.jewwatch.com to know the TRUTH, nothing but the TRUTH.

Read also the TALMUD, and ...don't blame me if you "die while you are standing".....it's horrible.

Sharon et al are the main problem.
Those bastards are not Semit! The Semit are the Arab, Jews and Christians of old Jerusalem....

BTW, how about the genocide of some 20 MILLION Christians and Orthodox Russian done by the Zionist-Bolshevics during the Zionists-Red Revolution in Russia??????

A good Communist (and Zionist) is the dead one!

While most in the US and UK are celebrating the victory of an illegal, and wrongful aggression on Iraq, lets step back and think with more clarity.

Victory is often a symbol of right winning over wrong. It is the liberation of the oppressed, and the death of lies. This war, by no means, has never been justified. The US never did show concrete evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Nor have they found any even after having their own Marine mammals run all over Iraq. The US claimed Iraq to be a threat to their national security and a threat to Iraq's neighbors, but as the war has proven, a state that cannot even defend itself is by no means a threat to a nation on the other side of the world.

Sickening is the fact of how our administration revels at this as a true victory. I'm sure Hitler revelled at the fact of his "victory" by conquering European states. But that didn't justify his aggression and nor does over-running justify the aggression on Iraq.

Quite clearly, and simply put, this war was "illegal". Neither Iraq's neighbors (with the exception of Kuwait - who should win an Emmy Award for their role as US's Puppet) felt Iraq to be such a threat that a war would be justified.

Ruthless aggression like the one just witnessed by the world on the Iraqi civilians will never bring peace. It will create more enemies, and fuel more aggression. For now, Pres. Bush may be dancing at the victory. In the next 20 years, the Americans will wish they never invaded Iraq. One easy way to multiply your enemies is to alienate everyone else.

Imagine if a "terrorist" were to blow up a McDonald's restaurant killing 11 people. I'm sure Pres. Bush and the entire Marine Mammals core would be ready to take action. So how come its okay that US bombs can kill 11 civilians in a home in Afghanistan, or thousands in Baghdad? Simply put, this US administration has emphasized the mentality of the American psychi -> American lives are worth more than anyone else.

It's what Hitler fed on. It's what the Pharoah's fed on. It's what most war criminals feed on. The end of all of these are the same -> utter destruction by their own hands.

Welcome to the new World Order in which under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, fascism, fundementalism, etc., it's just the opposite.

glad to see this. CBC had the decency to mention during the video being shown, that about 50 people there in total. mostly journalists.
meanwhile i have been seeing postings on the web from viewers mentioning thousands of people.
i am grateful for CBC for keeping me objective about what i was seeing/reading.

Damian Day?

Death to all you towell loving anti-western mother fuckers.
USA,Israel and Britain will rule the planet cause you thick cock suckers are the scum who deserve to die.

My brother is in the Marine Mammals. Fancy telling that to his face? Nah thought not you slimey piece of cowardly shit.

alea iacta est

It doesn't matter if it was staged or not; someone in Iraq would have loved to pull that symbol of oppression down.
It does serve as a dandy piece of propaganda, regardless of the number of enthusiasts.
There are not many in Iraq who would have dared civil disturbances at this stage of the game, in my opinion.
Just the same, we could have had the same outcome peacefully with a thinking group in Washington DC.

A job very well done by the coalition's PR wings, namely the BBC, the CNN, Fox, CNBC, Sky... (those are the ones i have access too), thank you for freeing us the otherwise gloom and disgust of the war.

 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Bullshit! This picture was taken MUCH later AFTER they toppled the statue.... You people are being duped into believing this muslim propaganda! Find me one Iraqi (outside the Baath party) who is sad and angry that Sadam is gone foever. Muslims are rejoicing!!! Muslims have been liberated 4 times (Kuwait, Kosovo, afganistan& Iraq) in the past 12 years by...Americans. They feel humiliated but yet they will not do anything to help each other help in time of need. Again America, against public and muslim opinion have shown that they can act in good faith (and get trashed for it) and help out the muslims.

normally an Iraqi coming that close would be blown away-so it was a set up.

I think the saddest thing that has happened to us americans is that we have stopped using our brain a long time ago. We don't have time to ask questions or seek the truth. We sit infront of the TV everyday and tell the TV, "okay I'm here now, so tell me what to believe". I think one day we will all wake up but that day is not going to be any time soon. The definition of truth is not "what happened" anymore, we have re-defined the truth as "what we want people to know happened". It's such a shame..

it was reported by independent journalists in baghdad and northern Iraq that crowds of people were celebrating that saddam was out and that there was a large crowd gathered around the statue. also they reported that thousands were roaming the streets of baghdad looting and joyful. what do you make of that? what the independent reporters are reporting.

No it's not a Muslim site! It's 100 percent an American site(whatreallyhappened.com). With regard to Kosovo,Kuwait, Afganistan and Iraq being freed by American. All these countries were living a prosperous life long before MI6 & CIA start manipulating their government for the sake of elitists. Read your history...

I'm stunned by the extremes exhibited by the people posting on this site!

The event pictured above was the perfect moment that the media had been waiting on - a visual, definable moment that signalled the fall of Baghdad. It's not US propaganda and it does not matter how many Iraqi's were there celebrating. It is simply closure to the media's filmic (dumbed down) coverage of the war. No conspiracy! No propaganda! You lot should get your heads out of your own arses... Some TV stations/newspapers are pro-war, some are anti. Some are sceptical, some are gung-ho. Ride with it! Make your choice as to what you think but don't ram it down everybody's throats... F**king cynics!

c'mon america wake up, the only toppling that should be happening is in washington, usa, that nutty puppet on a string bush has tricked the shit out to many people... fuck him and his sly buddies off...

biblical quote...

Every Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. Mathew: 12:25… We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter…it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The markets took a dive after this photo was released. Traders must get more accurate news.

you know Andy, you have summed everything up in a paragraph but I thought that only a few knew the truth, but I guess more and more people are realizing that the media is a big fat liar and that it can make events seem real and make the entire world feel sympothy for something that never took place.

I never really saw much difference between Bush or Saddam.
They are both meglomanical toddies only interested in them-
selves and their own agendas. Both willing to have someone
else do their dirty work for them and both slimy and slick
as a wet eel. Typical robber barron scumbags.

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Kill your TV, and truth shall set you free. Right on!

I watched the whole event from start to finish on the webcam set up by the reporters at the Palastine hotel. It was farcical to say the least, it took several attempts by the US troops to topple the statue with one soldier clambering up and down the Armoured Recovery Vehicle to place and remove the US flag and then the Iraqi flag.
What the TV did not show was the marines entering a building near the jubilant scene and being confronted by 2 British human shield volunteers, they stood up to the marines, the guy actually threatening one of the bewildered soldiers. The girl was great and told them what the consequences of theur "liberation" would be in years to come, would love to see that again.
Give me a break, this is in its first days, when all the euphoria has died down and the realisation sets in that Iraq is not being liberated but occupied and used as a stepping stone for other operations the people will not be so submissive. Looks to me like this is a nice place to conduct more excursions, hey all you other Middle East countries don't forget to disarm so we don't lose too many men when we invade as it looks bad to the folks back home if we do.

When it comes to the people that aren't in the way of bombs or gunfire, this war is just a war on truth, a competition of mass manipulation. I have seen he effects first hand. My Father who I see as one of the few middle aged folks that has not sold out. He even went to a anti-war march with me. Latley his views have changed and I think the continued destortion of facts by the media is the reason.

Is this why the indy press were executed by that slow deiberate targeting tank the day before ? just a thought.

The United States keeps sinking to new lows. Their propaganda is becoming so ridiculous that it is comparable to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. Bush said he would make the arabs dance in Baghdad. I wonder how much they were paid to do it.

Americans are like a goldfish in a fishbowl. Many eyes are looking at the goldfish and know how the goldfish's life looks like. Whereas the goldfish has no idea how the world outside is like. They are arrogant thinking that they have the right to govern other peoples life. America and Britain are best friends and if these two have made mistakes a true friend will advise against doing what is wrong. But no, they refuse to take the advise of their friends. Who is in the right and who is in the wrong only those who like to think deeply will find the answer.
As for this picture above, the Iraqis who were dancing, I believe, do not have any family or friends dead, injured or missing and their homes are intact. You don't expect these people who have lost their loved ones to crowd there. And anyway Bush promised regime change, not statue change. U cannot consider toppling Saddam's statue as victory. Only with Saddam dead then, U have at least achieved part of yr illegal intention. Thanks for this kind of website where we can get different persective on many issues that affect our lives.

They also, coincidentally, tumbled that day...and it was right after I took a shit! They must really have their eye on me, too! It's called a coincidence you dumbass...

Lies, more lies!! When will it be over? When we wake up and take back our country. You have been so invaluable to me and my family throughout this war. I would have been one of those tv heads believing everything I see if it were not for you.These crooks have to be stopped, I mean the Bushes, Kissinger, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al.

This raises several questions, and I do not believe they are the questions you at IndyMedia want raised. What I see in this photo is the statue is gone. I wonder what time it was taken? How long after it came down? Remember "master propaganda” works both ways. Selective coverage indeed, when it is published on a socialist organization’s site it should be questioned hard. I also believe that this site and those that link to it need to remember, if things were as bad as you pretend they are you would not be online.

04/10/2003

As the Whole World Watched.....

They kept saying that history was being made,
As all the world viewed,
As they beat on that granite pylon,
first one and then two.

They had something to say,
and for the first time, their voices were heard,
They rang loud, they rang clear,
while inside some, the fear still stirred.

They danced and they shouted;
and they chanted praises of relief,
There was smiles on faces that looked almost foriegn,
Afterall~ they've never known anything but grief.

And then it dawned on me;
this was not just history in the making,
It was the birth of a new life;
all for the taking.

And so they placed a noose around the neck;
of the oppressor of their fate,
And they worked until their nutrition deprived bodies;
was exhausted from the release of hate.

Tears welled in my eyes, as they called for help;
after realizing they were just too weak,
Even as a statue he was still stronger than they;
but they had climbed their liberation mountain to the very peak.

And they were victorious in their battle;
as that statue came tumbling into the street,
More dancing, more shouting;
the demon now lay beneath their feet.

A young child rode proudly through the streets of Baghdad;
on the head of the dragon, now slain.
He paraded with a feeling of a battle won;
and looking foward with only good to be gained.

If only for a moment they felt they had defeated;
to them it was worth all they had.
Their strength, their anger, the release of depression;
a first smile on the face of the sad.

But if there was any history truly made;
it will live forever in the heart of that young lad,
And the tear filled eyes of the viewing world;
as they removed one more reminder from the streets of Baghdad.

by: Lisa Hilbers

Another goverment spnsored psy-op. More propaganda and more lies. I wonder if all those poor Iraqis who were slaughtered,and being slaugthered had a chance to run to the nearest flowere shop to purchase flowers for the murderous americans and brits. what lies and what a disgrace. i am so ashamed of this racist, greedy country, and i don't give a damn about the troops. Most of them want to be there so they can kill "rag heads". I have no pity for any of them. I only weep for the poor Iraqis and the destruction of their beautiful contry. These beasts in washington and london must be stopped now. And why aren't the Arab states rising up? what are they waiting for? another invasion. I am enraged over this. Murderers and destroyers of cilizations. Racists and empirialist pigs. americans and brits out of Iraq NOW.

i thought andy was being sarcastic. then i saw what 'ms' wrote and i'm actually now terrified...

my grandparents aren't liars you assholes, and they sure as shit didn't tattoo the numbers on their arms themselves. nor did they abandon their homes, starve themselves, nor murder their own families. if you'd like to meet to discuss this further, i will happily tell this to your face, and then proceed to slap and/or spit in it, because this is possibly the most insulting thing you could possibly say to me, a descendant of four holocaust surviviors.

the degree of belief you have in anti-semitic propaganda is flabbergasting. i am extremely surprised people can be so ignorant and misguided in our modern era. you so badly need to blame someone for the miseries in your own life, that you have to scapegoat an entire people, to the point where you believe they would stage their own slaughter. regretfully, it would seem that only palestinians do that:  http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0204.htm

ah hell, it's nothing new, blaming all the world's miseries on the jews. it's been going on for 2,000 years. god forbid it should stop now.

There's another 4 holohoax survivors! I wonder why they were tattooed? Tattoos and haircuts seemz like a waste of time and resources if the intention was to slaughter all those jews. Oh yeah, how many jewz were in Germany in 1940? Not 6 million? In all of Europe? What did they do, sign up to be holohoaxed? Get over it jewz. The facade is crumbling - your lies are out.

War for oil? No, war for Israel.

www.nowarforisrael.com

So you are saying it was a staged event? Were you there...standing in the crowds? Anything can be set up to look the way you want it to be effective. I say...listen to the stories of the people.
You can not dismiss the joy of the Iraq people finally being free from a tyrant....let them enjoy.
And the Arab states should be shamed for allowing fellow Muslims being held hostage for so many years.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2933557.stm

This looks like a golf course in Arizona actually. I bet this is the same place they faked the Moon landings! Damn that evil corporate media. Chomsky is right, it is all lies!

Those on your website commenting 50 or so running up to the statue. It is very likely that they were those who were flown in days before. How lucky for the Western audience that they all talked fluent English!

April 06, 2003
"Iraqi exiles fly in to incite anti-Saddam uprisings
Opposition mobilises free Iraqi force

AMONG their ranks were an Iraqi American who had abandoned his grocery store in Missouri and a former nightclub bouncer from London. Hundreds of Iraqi exiles, assembled under the banner of the Free Iraqi Force, opened a new front in the battle to oust Saddam Hussein yesterday after flying to the south of the country on a perilous mission to incite rebellion in its cities."

the ppl takin part in these "liberation celebrations" r stupid, yanks cant watch their asses all the time, anti-yank fighters gonna hunt these traitors down like dogs, just like taliban been doin for the past 18 months in afghanistan. death to all ignorant short sighted iraqis, these r the ppl that deserve to b killed by yank missiles and iraqi gas. fuckin kurds, shias and INC didnt get enough of wot they deserve in halabja and 91.

Those on your website commenting 50 or so running up to the statue. It is very likely that they were those who were flown in days before. How lucky for the Western audience that they all talked fluent English!

April 06, 2003
"Iraqi exiles fly in to incite anti-Saddam uprisings
Opposition mobilises free Iraqi force

AMONG their ranks were an Iraqi American who had abandoned his grocery store in Missouri and a former nightclub bouncer from London. Hundreds of Iraqi exiles, assembled under the banner of the Free Iraqi Force, opened a new front in the battle to oust Saddam Hussein yesterday after flying to the south of the country on a perilous mission to incite rebellion in its cities."

You must be joking. I watched the thing live on the BBC news feed. You shysters make me sick.

Stop looking for stories which don't exist.

You haven't learned?

After all these years, Greenland -- mostly ice and snow most of the time -- is still Greenland.

People see what they want. And Geenland's name will stay because there is a bit of truth in it, just like there's a bit of truth to "liberating" Iraq.

While i agree with your deduction, it must be pointed out that this image could easily have been altered in Photoshop to delete or add any desired visual elements.
I point this out to you because that will certainly be the claim made by the disbelievers. Be prepared,

It is just like the photos from the initial days of the war showing "jubilant" crowds--which turned out to be a few people that the news ran over and over.

Please don't get too paranoid. Just trash your TV. Concerning the fake moon landing: no it wasn't fake. They landed in the moon, but they got a big surprise from the dark side of the moon. Haven't you wonder, with all these technology at NASA's disposal, why they never explored moon any further! There exists a highly advanced alien race living on the dark side.

While i agree with your deduction, it must be pointed out that this image could easily have been altered in Photoshop to delete or add any desired visual elements.
I point this out to you because that will certainly be the claim made by the disbelievers. Be prepared,

Please don't get too paranoid. Just trash your TV. Concerning the fake moon landing: no it wasn't fake. They landed in the moon, but they got a big surprise from the dark side of the moon. Haven't you wonder, with all these technology at NASA's disposal, why they never explored moon any further! There exists a highly advanced alien race living on the dark side.

...and the fact they they were draggin the head thru the streets and beating it, I guess that was staged too. You morons need to wake up to reality and stop trying to see only what you want to see. Your so full of hate u won't believe anything, quite pathetic really...

I see no great "conspiracy" here, just more fodder for your websitem, why don;t you kiss saddams arse you obviously bought his shit.

ik

I actually think that this is not even a photo of Baghdad. This whole thing is taking place in a studio mock-up in California. If you look closely you will see that some of the "arabs" who were hitting the statue have been seen in episodes of CSI Miami. Typical CIA job this. Do not be fooled.

I questioned from the very first the wisdom of the press being embedded with the US and British armed forces. For what we have seen and heard from them is so sanitized as to be utterly worthless. Non embedded journalists have been killed, held in custody, and thrown out of Iraq for telling the truth. Peter Arnett and Robert Fisk have been accused of being traitors for doing their jobs and reporting the truth.

One of the earliest meanings of the word embed is prostitution, and it is still a true meaning. For by giving their services to the military that is exactly what those journalists engaged in; The Worlds Oldest Profession.

I have found it one of the saddest days of my life to see the western press take such a step. So, instead of watching US news on the war, I watch Mexico's coverage.
Online I read papers from many foriegn country's, plus the reports coming out from Reporters without Borders, MSF,ICRC, WHO and several other relief agencies in the area. Only then have I gained a true glance at the truth. It is chilling indeed and makes me so ashamed of my country's actions.

However!The effect of this stunt seems to have reached Americans and Iraq alike...in that both feel ,psychologically, that Saddam is dead and gone.It doesnt matter if he really is or that this is a stunt,which it clearly is...but that the IDEA of Saddam is gone,in their minds,and now in ours.If its false and we see him or feel the old regime coming back in any way,though,the rest of the world will feel even more betrayed by America's false propaganda.

-Open

I can't stop this site is so funny that i just can't stop, you people are soooooo ignorant that i have to (LOL...)

sorry Ingnorant is the wrong word... You people are FUKING STUPID to belive your own lies that you are spewing from the orafaces that you call your mouths (ass is more like it)

This photo propaganda scam reminds me of the photo released right after the World Trade Center attacks on 9/11. The mass media published photos of Palestinians rejoicing, but it was a very old photo, probably of a wedding celebration. My former team members, then in Palestine with the Christian Peacemakers Team, reported first-hand that all the Palestinians only expressed sorrow and grief.

Of course some Iraqis welcome the conqueror; that's because they've been conquered.

Who is the idiot that put the picture of the boy on this site? How can you claim that the Holocaust never happended??????????????

You are sick in the head!!

Oh i see!!! How could I have been so blind for so long? The holocaust didn't happen. Hitler was a misunderstood painter. Aliens really did crash-land in Roswell. Elvis faked his own death. Princess Diana had plastic surgery and wasn't even in the car. September 11th was an insurance scam. And now the events in Baghdad are a media stunt. Well, blow me down...how did I make it to the age of 41 believing all the lies?

Two things to all you sad little pimple-faced conspiracy theorists, Jew Haters and general social fuck-ups: its time to discover girls, and then rearrange these three words "Life get a". While you are at it leave the real world to the grown-ups; you're obviously up way past your bed time and spent too much time dressing up as adults.

although this was in many ways a pseudo-event it retained the kernal of a utopian impulse - it's always inspiring to see fascists deposed - but how bad are the deposers?

I have been appalled at the lack of responsibility shown
by the Media for this war.
This war would not have been as easily accepted if not for the Media being just as deceiving and cunning as Bush and the gang.
I feel that the Media pushed, shoved and commercialized this war to the public 24/7 to sell it!
Now I think they should be ashamed of themselves and
knowing that they are partly to blame for every dead Iraqi
whether he be a baby a mother, a civilian or a militant.
Blood is on their hands!
This was no war, this was a blatant attack on another country...an unarmed country.
And still they choose to lie to the public by giving us
half truths.

I noticed that when I was watching the Iraqi citizens stomping on the fallen statue of Saddam, one thing I noticed... it appeared to me that almost none of these statue stompers were wearing tradional Iraqi garb, just about all of them were wearing American style clothing like blue jeans, a sports t-shirt etc. When the camera man had a more distant view of the scene you could see what looked like tradionally dressed Iraqi citizens in the background just looking in awe. Also this demonstration was done under the protection of American tanks and military. The media protrayed it like all of Baghdad had fallen to the coalition forces when I later heard that they only had about 20% control of the city when these demonstrations were going on. I heard only a few days prior to this I that the US bused about 700 Iraqi American Exiles into Iraq. So I really now wonder were these statue stompers really Iraqi citizens or just American and British Iraqi Exiles.

The world is really fucked up now, and i think always has been, but now you cannot believe anyone.

The time has come, the only one that can save us is god. And we need to shut those t.v's off and realize that we are here, the chosen generation to experience the biblical armeggedon.

Which means, this War and the ones the after, are signs that there is cancer in the body of god( earth ) and the Earth now will preform surgery, a form of amputation.

Godwilling, but that means alot of us will die.

Read revelations in the bible. U will see the America will suffer greatly, and if you feel that u do not desrve this, "Get out of her now so you will not suffer her many plagues and destructions".

Just believe that we will get what we deserve, and if that sounds like bad thing, well, you got problems :)

Hi,

I totally agree with this article and the fact that this whole war has caused great confusion, we need to know the real truth and not this stuff shown on tv.

As of now I have lost all respect for president Bush, the only way I can ever reconsider him, and the one way America can gain all its respect as the leader and hero of the world is to actually come up with some weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq and lots of it.

Regards,
HarenR

Rhythm, Since when is questioning your government anti-American? I happen to believe very strongly that Americans have a right to have an opinion without being labeled a trator and burned at the stake.

I don't question that the Iraqi people need to be liberated. I question the motivation behind all of this. Heck, up until a couple of weeks ago, this whole situation wasn't about freeing anyone. It was all about weapons of mass destruction (WMD). I'm all for freeing anyone who is oppressed. The strong SHOULD take care of the weak. However, we didn't start out that way. It was ONLY when we couldn't convice the international community about the WMD did we really play the "freedom card." Am I the only one who has a memory that spans more than three weeks back?

And speaking of freedom...why is it that the top brass who were against our actions in Bosnia are suddenly so gung-ho about freeing Iraq?

There is one thing that I do agree with you on: If you are myopic enough to believe that the Holocaust didn't really happen, just ask someone's Grandmother what "those funny little numbers tatooed to her arms" are all about.

Donald Rumsfeld has made no secret of the crucial role played by "psy-ops" and incredibly sophisticated pscyhological warfare in the attack on Iraq. this was touted in the front pages of major newspapers and on our nightly news reports. Can they be disingenuous enough to act as if the American public has suddenly forgotten the role that manipulation of images has played in the military campaign, and is ready to concsume these images with innocent gullibility???

and send this information around to the fake media sources like CNN, NBC..etc. I'm so sick of their B.S.!

Why is anybody surprised that our government lies?
LYNDON JOHNSON lied to us (in 1967?) about the Gulf of Tonkin non-incident that escalated the Vietnam fiasco.
RICHARD NIXON told us more lies about Vietnam and the Watergate blunder.
RONALD REAGAN lied about our Latin-American operations and about the Soviets.
GEORGE BUSH the Elder told us the truth once in August, 1990, right after Iraq invaded Kuwait when he said he was sending troops to the Gulf "to protect our way of life"--but thereafter he lied by telling us it was to stop Iraq's aggression.
BILL CLINTON lied about Monica Lewinsky; not important.
GEORGE BUSH the Younger lies when he tells us "those people hate us because we have freedom and democracy" rather than because we topple democracies and install and support dictatorships.
Wake up, America!

Has anyone else noticed how WE (the US) are now not much different than Iraq? We have our own dictator (Bush) and we have our own Al-Jazeera (propoganda-laced news media).

US media will most likely replay the statue toppling footage every 5 minutes for the next two days. Even with just channel surfing, I've seen it about 20 times already.

I am also disgusted - and quite frightened - to be an American now.

The press is just as believable as O.J. Simpson's innocence.

I must say that if anyone was duped, they are the same people who will themselves to believe six impossible things every morning before breakfast - inlcuding the lie that GW Bush is "President."

The spin continues. We are really approaching Brave New World proportions of mind control!

I have been watching CNN constantly and know about all the editing etc...but as far as the Statue Toppling incident is concerned, it was obvious to me that it was scripted. ONE IRAQI was carrying a sign that said "BYE BYE SADAAM"..Is bye bye an Iraqi expression. Nancy

This metaphor of Saddam statue being toppled and dragged in Firdous Square of Bahgdad conveys quite another meaning to the whole of West Asia. As for the western TV audiences, it was another piece of entertainment from a war that has mostly been presented to them as a giant video arcade show.
It repeats Kabul "celebrating" its colonization. As it does Grenada, and several other imperial "theatres" of war and conquest and subjugation.
What was not shown is more important: the slaughter of independent journalists by the colonial axis, the streets of Baghdad with the dead and disfigured littering them, the hospitals resembling hell, stressed and overloaded caring for the infernally injured and corpses with paltry medical appurtenances,and overworked doctors.Arabs will remember.

thank you indymedia. i needed that. the world needs to see that.

during the Sunday evening before this war commenced, easily by a factor of 10 -- which is to say some 2,000 people filled Decatur Square on March 16, 2003. (composite panorama photo on file at Atlanta IMC website)

If all the anti-American, anti-mainstream media, conspiracy theory-loving, social screw-ups really disbelieve the media - a question for you: WHAT WERE YOU DOING WATCHING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE????

You lot are just so pathetic. If something doesn't exist (i.e. the 'truth' on world television) then how can you say its wrong? Or is that too taxing for you fuck wits to understand???

There are way too many leftists on this site. I for one saw hundreds if not thousands in this square. Use your head. Stop and think for a moment. Where is the statue in this picture? Gone Gone Gone. It already has been dragged down the street. This is a snapshot later in the day. Nice try though. I will need much much more to be convinced of conspiracy. Besides, the media has been bashing this war since the beginning. Don't you think they would play this event down instead of build it up.

You wouldn't have any of your own agenda now would you? There is no concept of time with a picture. When the tanks rolled in, only a few newspeople were on the streets. Iraqi citizens after 30 years of terror and a good 6-12 months of Saddam's most recent propaghanda that the American "Aggressors" would kill innocents had plenty of reason to be apprehensive. Reality and truth, don't take long to fester however, except I guess in your small and backwards mind. Many of the 5 million citizens of Bahgdad had previously fled, and certainly the remain 3 to 4 million don't ALL live within walking distance of the Palestine hotel. Sorry that that group wasn't as large as the gatherings of peacequeers in NYC, Chicago, and Seattle. You see, those people know the concept of freedom, not fear. Soon, most of Iraq will too-but please DON'T report it, because you don't support it. Sure, many Iraqi's are still loyal to Saddam, just as many ignorant and scared Americans are afraid of Bush. That doesn't make them right, and I think they've been pretty well covered in the news for the last 30 years of his regime. SHAME< SHAME ON YOU. By the way, your name and the band FOZZY suck. Put away your Cocteau Twins, Aaron Carter, and Morisissy records and listen to some Wesley Willis, Descendents or ZEKE and keep waiting for the other ball to drop. testes, one.............2

THIS IS REALLY THE WORST WAR MOVIE I'VE EVER SEEN. AND I'VE SEEN THEM ALL.

You wouldn't have any of your own agenda now would you? There is no concept of time with a picture. When the tanks rolled in, only a few newspeople were on the streets. Iraqi citizens after 30 years of terror and a good 6-12 months of Saddam's most recent propaghanda that the American "Aggressors" would kill innocents had plenty of reason to be apprehensive. Reality and truth, don't take long to fester however, except I guess in your small and backwards mind. Many of the 5 million citizens of Bahgdad had previously fled, and certainly the remain 3 to 4 million don't ALL live within walking distance of the Palestine hotel. Sorry that that group wasn't as large as the gatherings of peacequeers in NYC, Chicago, and Seattle. You see, those people know the concept of freedom, not fear. Soon, most of Iraq will too-but please DON'T report it, because you don't support it. Sure, many Iraqi's are still loyal to Saddam, just as many ignorant and scared Americans are afraid of Bush. That doesn't make them right, and I think they've been pretty well covered in the news for the last 30 years of his regime. SHAME< SHAME ON YOU. By the way, your name and the band FOZZY suck. Put away your Cocteau Twins, Aaron Carter, and Morisissy records and listen to some Wesley Willis, Descendents or ZEKE and keep waiting for the other ball to drop. testes, one.............2

Seeing how a 'mighty' alliance cannot trust even its own self, but resort to selling lies to themselves and their own people makes me very comfortable. Even without my participation ( I m too far away for now), The American and British will consume themselves by their own fear of the truth.

An Afghanistan awaits them in the belly of the desert, in Iraq. Russia, Im sure would be glad to help Americans and the British destroy themselves, just like the Americans had earlier helped the Soviets break up into pieces after the Afghan misadventure. Time will tell. The war is not not only over. It is about to begin.

Media overstatement versus media understatement - 'tens of thousands' of marchers(Media on Oct. 2002 war protest march) when wider angle photos from the top of the Washington Monument and bus counts revealed at least one hundred thousand people massed in DC six months before this disgusting piece of aggression directed at the cradle of western civilization. Pathetic.

Once again we have like minded people who hate this war, hate all Zionists, and hate Prince Georgie.

P.S. Andy this extra picture is a one of my favorite German officers from the war, Reinhard Heydrich.

Thanks, Fozzy.

It´s disappointing the way the BBC,CNN,ABC,CBS,FOX and others are portraying the "truth" about the war, they should be a shame....!!!! it´s disgusting.....!!!!

If you have the chance to see other countries news or independent channel news, you will see the "real truth" about the war....!!!!

I was in Red Square on New Year's Eve 1991 soon after the fall of the Iron Curtain. There were eight or nine Russians carrying signs that said things like, "It's not too late to go back!" and "Stalin Lives!" But the rest of the tens of thousands of people in Red Square that night were just having fun.

CNN was there filming this tiny group of protestors in such a way that the whole thing looked like a massive rally in support of returning to communism.

At the time, it served the American military machine's purposes to keep American's terrified of Russia while they were working on creating a new straw man to justify their continued massive spending.

And CNN was there to do their bidding. As always.

White men bringing down colored men with a noose around the neck . . . remeniscent of what??

Shame on them?
I have seen the news and I never heard them say anything about numbers. I do not understand your story. Does it mean that cause you only see 20 Iraqis that the people are not happy Saddam is gone. I think you have missed the whole Idea behind the statue being taken down.
Have you ever heard of symbolic!
By the way, do you want hundreds of people on the streets while a war is going on? I for sure would not be out on the street even if I was happy Saddam was gone.

The entirety of the "war" and all the rhetoric and visuals are propaganda created by the Bush regime to manipulate the American public. Unfortunately they are succedding. I have been in advertising all my life and this is the lagest advertising campaign I have ever seen to cover the beginning of the atrocities to come.As an American I am ashamed of the perception the world has of the totality of Americans as opposed to the machinations of the Bush empire and it's ignorant followers. Media is needed to fight media.
Larry Gerber

Even if this place was full it would still represent a very low turnout. Baghdada is a city of 5 million. I am sure many more people would have actually gathered had they brought in Rumsfeld's head.

Whatever dude.

...think about that: ...spread a disease (SARS) in China, so it is for "sure" going around the world...slowing down civilian air-travelling in whole Asia(60%ugs...already..). Moving the troops in S-Korea away from the border into the country. So nobody can see "something"! Hmmm...send a missle from the S/N-Korean border to the US coast and SAY it was N-Korea...that way you have the whole world behind you supporting a new war (including the UN)!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that all the mainstream media stations are quick to glamorize the war and dispense propaganda to the Americans. It makes me sick. I am sure the Bush regime is just gloating inside. I think its funny how when they showed this footage it was zoomed in to make it appear like more people were there. I still oppose the war. I know it has been about controlling the Iraqi oil from the very beginning. I am not proud to be an American.

Clearly the article _The "toppling" of Saddam and the Iraqi regime: a tale of 2 photos_ is the 100 percent truth. Bush and media are all liers trying to cover up the horrors and genocide of American capitalism.

But then again...couldn't this also be propaganda? Why should we believe YOU about this? As Chomsky says, the media manufacters consent, and here we have a media article that says the toppling of Saddam is faked. This could be a CIA ploy to spread PR that Saddam hasn't been toppled therefore the cover-up of US genocide can continue...or maybe all the War is just a coverup and the anti-war movement a CIA TRAP to get us all together for mind control!!???

THIS IS ALL CIA! YOU ARE ALL CIA! GO TAKE YOUR MIND CONTROL PR BULLSHIT AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR MONKEY ASSES! I HAD YOU RIGHT-WING JEWLOVING FASCISTS AND YOUR PROPAGANDA!

thanks to all you people who sat around and debated,made primal scream protests and basically did nothing but watched as this calamity happen ,talk is one thing ,getting off your buts and doing something is another,the globalists have just showed the world that no one can stop them

you are absolutely right. some of those who showed up for that event are people flown with chalbi the CIA puppet. they are totally exposed. only the pee-brained FOX tv watchers believe that we are liberating Iraq. Who's going to liberate us from the Zionists dictatorship?

Your picture must have been taken quite some time after the statue fell. Here is a picture that was taken immediately after:

 http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=310132&group=webcast

You can see that there are significantly more people. I would estimate that there are maybe four times as many as in your picture. Still not that many compared to the size of Baghdad, or, say, compared to the size of an American antiwar rally. But more than your picture and commentary would lead us to believe.

Well. I gotta belive my pres. wot?

These pictures are probably as realistic as those of Saddam Hussein shown amongst the cheers of his selected fans, but so what? Ever since Iwo Jima, all military shots are posed and staged. The point is that the genuine glee of those who are glad to see Saddam Hussein deposed while looting and vandalizing is one for the history books.

The proof of the pudding of the success of this mission will take several years to accomplish. Note already that those who were opposed to the war are now admitting that the coalition forces would not be there were it not for the evil of Saddam Hussein.

If you think about it a bit: If it were fake, there would have been a lot more people there... There aren't many there because not a ton of Iraqi's knew what was going on before hand. Also in many cases it's much harder for them to get there, and it's also extreamly unlikely they would have seen this on their local TV stations...

What will it take for you to believe this can happen??? My guess is nothing... If they did everything to prove many Iraqis are glad this is happening, no matter what they found you probably would still be trying to refute it.

I'm sure if they took a poll and it showed support, then the poll must have been fraudulent... Because in your mind(s) there is no way anything can prove the people are happy, regardless...

Most of these men are the henchmen of the Iraqi National Congress leader, Ahmed Chalabi who has just been flown in to Iraq. His thugs are already causing trouble in some of the southern towns under British control. In closeup pictures and video you will notice there are no older men or women.
Is Chalabi the guy who is wanted in Jordan for some banking scam? Just what the Iraqi people want....another crook to milk them dry and murder some more of them! When the Yanks have stopped killing their children, that is.

I am an Iranian-American who lives in USA. I’m proud to be called American because I strongly believe in America. America is the light, but unfortunately, Mr. Bush has turned the light off. Perhaps he is giving us a message. A very clear message that something is definitely wrong in the Middle East. I cried with my wife when we saw innocent lives vanished inside a collapsing two towers. It was a most horrific site I have experienced in my whole life. The darkness of the Middle East is upon us. Mr. Bush has only giving us a signal that there exists a serious matter in that region to be resolved ASAP. I also cried when the US’s shock & awe maimed innocent lives in Iraq. Mr. Bush is only a human who is giving us a signal to clear the 2000 years old religious matter resolved, meanwhile the Jewish elites make sky rocketing profit out of this serious matter. The matter is that Islam is a dead religion. Islam died when prophet Mohammad died. I remember during my late childhood, we were required to take a religion course in Iran. We were taught that Islam was the ultimate word of God, written by Prophet Mohammad in the holy book, Koran. If Koran was the last word of God, then why did it branch up into two sects - Sunni and Shiite. Do we see unity amongst these two sects? Obviously not! Sadam being a Sunni, and Iranian mullahs being Shiite, both are arced enemies of each other. Do you see where I am going? The final words of God have no division. It is true for Catholics and Protestants as well. We are all part of the One. Ancient relics told us about the four elements: Fire, earth, wind and water. All things come from the Elements. Be it in their purest state or combinations there of, the Elements are there. These four come from the One, express themselves through the harmony of ten and then moves back unto the One (1+2+3+4={10}=1+0=1). The Elements make up all things- Stones, metals, plants, animals, angels, daemons, gods, devils, fiends, phantoms, and all other created things. They are up in the very heights of The Heavens, and the very depths of Hell. The Elements are within the Infernal, the Terrestrial, and the Celestial realms. They are within the Spirit, within Chaos, and within Life(1). I sincerely hope that we all stop pissing at each other, and we all can pray to the well being of humanity, and meditate to reach our soul and be with our God. If Mr. Bush is listening, I wish he abdicate his power to a person who is selected by the majority of all American, and I really mean the whole world. If America is claimed to be the police of this planet, then naturally must allow the whole planet vote for an American leader. Please Mr. Bush, be a true human, turn on the light, and ABDICATE.

1:  http://www.geocities.com/elemental_adept/

We lap up everything we see and hear. And yet we tell the world the west is superior.

The biggest weapon against sophisticated cutting edge technology is to think simple, and think very simple. American military will not and cannot handle simplicity.

So sad we have come to this.

God bless America, God Damn Allah!

i am completely sickened by this irresponsible news coverage. i foolishly expected more from the bbc.

Yea, you are really showing the truth. It is amazing how everyone has the right handle on the truth. Pick your position and the truth just seems to materialize. What you all seem to forget is, it is all just data your spin does not make it truth. An intelligent person sees it as data and then thinks. People who tell me how to think are pushing an agenda.

(article 1)Yeah, I agree the holocaust was real! Six-million er, four mill- or was that one million dead jews? I must be a hater!

(article 2)Yeah, I agree the holocaust was real! Six-million er, four mill- or was that one million dead jews? I must be a hater!

Truth and fiction do get mixed during war time, but fanatical anti-Semitism, as bad or even worse than Hitler's, is now a cultural norm across much of the Middle East and beyond. It's the acrid glue that unites
Saddam, Arafat, al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Iran and the Saudis. They all hate the Jews and want to see them destroyed. The poster of the Holocost photo should consider themself in the same category as those dictators named above.

Join NUCAWR Yahoo Group! and check out my new Hip Hop track entitled "Dick Cheney"!!!!

WORLDPEACE,
Benjamin

I really appreciate seeing this--though I suspect such manipulation at every point. I understand that some "spontaneous demonstrations of support" for America's invasion have been organized by Clear Channel Communications--large-scale financial backer of Bush campaigns.

And you're surprised by this? Were you not aware of the giant battle taking place 2 blocks away? Or that perhaps no war is complete without it's theater? Didn't the dork draping the stars & stripes tip you off?

Have you never studied a war of the past?

Try printing some useful article. This is a giant no doi. Clowns...

Here you have one more "breathtaking" (Donald Rumsfeld)
piece:

 http://mprofaca.topcities.com/shakinghands.wmv

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Ramsfeld
then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan,
in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
























Mario's Cyberspace Station
The Global Intelligence News Portal
[ http://mprofaca.cro.net/]

At what point during the demonstration was this photo taken? Sure, at this point there are not a lot of people around, but if you will notice in the top right picture there is a gathering of cars at a checkpoint. In this picture there are only about 15 cars.

When I turned on the TV and witnessed the toppling of the statue, I noticed HUNDREDS of cars at the checkpoint.

This picture was taken in the first minutes of the demonstration... had it been taken later, there would have been HUNDREDS of demonstrators that appeared once they heard what was going on.

Propaganda works both ways I guess, but the truth will always find the light.

....not many people compared to the impression it gave on TV. Could we be manipulated ? Of course no...I still think there were more Iraqis in hospitals in Baghdad than tearing down the statue yesterday.

The photographs tell the story... media manipulation on a grand scale. Yes, the occupation has begun.

 http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63743&group=webcast

email this story | download as PDF | print article
Staged "Liberation" media event?
by against occupation 5:43am Thu Apr 10 '03 (Modified on 5:03pm Thu Apr 10 '03)

April 6th: Iraqi National Congress founder, Ahmed Chalabi is flown into the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah by the Pentagon. Chalabi, along with 700 fighters of his "Free Iraqi Forces" are airlifted aboard four massive C17 military transport planes. Chalabi and the INC are Washington favorites to head the new Iraqi government. A photograph is taken of Chalabi and members of his Free Iraqi Forces militia as they arrive in Nasiriyah.

April 9th: One of the "most memorable images of the war" is created when U.S. troops pull down the statue of Saddam Hussein in Fardus Square. Oddly enough... a photograph is taken of a man who bears an uncanny resemblance to one of Chalabi's militia members... he is near Fardus Square to greet the Marines. How many members of the pro-American Free Iraqi Forces were in and around Fardus Square as the statue of Saddam came tumbling down?

The up close action video of the statue being destroyed is broadcast around the world as proof of a massive uprising. Still photos grabbed off of Reuters show a long-shot view of Fardus Square... it's empty save for the U.S. Marines, the International Press, and a small handful of Iraqis. There are no more than 200 people in the square at best. The Marines have the square sealed off and guarded by tanks. A U.S. mechanized vehicle is used to pull the statue of Saddam from it's base. The entire event is being hailed as an equivalent of the Berlin Wall falling... but even a quick glance of the long-shot photo shows something more akin to a carefully constructed media event tailored for the television cameras.

More info on the propaganda ploy:
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID66/17554.html#1

Idiots. CNN International was showing this live for an hour and a half. There were several hundred Iraqis. NO Americans in sight for the first hour. They tried to use ropes and a sledghammer. The American vehicles rolled in much later (the Iraqis ran to call them to the statue). Then, embarrassingly, the first vehicle which tried to pull down the statue, an armored personnel carrier, didn't have enough horsepower. The second vehicle was then called in. The disorganized nature of the event, the way Iraqis were constantly climbing on to the statue, the way they couldn't get the ropes tied for about an hour, (maybe the ropes snapped), shows anyone with any understanding of human beings that this was a spontaneous event.

I have read the posted page
 http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=55268&group=webcast

with surprise and disgust. What do you imply with the outrageous comments you make with the picture from the Varsow ghetto? You talk about propaganda, do you really think people are that stupid and do not see through YOUR lies and propaganda?

the way people percieve things
statistics shown its 70% how you look
20% how you sound
and 10% what you say..............

and when you look at both photos........

I have failed to find this on bbc web page. Can someone site the article so I can feel better that I'm not looking at something taking place before or after or something assembled on a computer?

The picture might have been taken an hour after the toppling, when things have calmed down a bit and the crowd was smaller by then. The sun appears to be setting.
This of course does not change that the images we saw of what might have been going on earlier was not manipulated as to exaggerate the events.

this smelt of hollywood wag the dog

It's not even a sculpture but only a statue.What about the poor Iraqi artist whose work was destroyed in the name of "victory"? get real.

Now that we Americans have shot a hot load of patriotism on the middle east, won't the rest of u sit back and relax as we lead human civilization into the shitter...enjoy!
Send hate mail to:  meagsjoe@netscape.net

As I mentioned to my wife last night during the news. I bet the CIA, Israelies Intelligence, or our Soldiers shipped in the fake crowd that was there. This only tends to prove that!
The past 3 week the Jewnited States News Media has hidden many truths! We drop a bomp in a mall and kill 67 innocents.. 1 hour later a dud scud lands in an empty Kuwati parking garage. What a coincidence!!! Our Media then covers the stagged bombing in Kuwati as decoy for our mistake at the Mall.

Iam ashamed of our American media and the way they used their
cameras to show an inaccurate pic of that square.
If the Amerrican media has any honor they should be protesting the
bombing and the killing of their fellow journalists.

I do not find this photo on BBC. who took this photo, and where is it published? This should all be documented or many people will not belive this. please provide this information as I am unable to findthis photo on BBC as of now.

The u.s.a. is lying to the world, When will the rest of the WORLD wake up, and tell the u.s. we're fed up with you, and your lies!!! I'm ashamed that things have turned out this way. lies, lies, and more lies! and how many innocents that have been killed?!!! I'm totally against the violence, and them killing in my name!

I've been reading the comments and am amazed at the responses. What is with all this hateful Jewish comments? Andy's stupidity and hateful rhetoric is unbelievable.

There is no documentation about this photo at all - no proof of when it was taken or by whom. Many of you just believe it without giving it a second thought. That just goes to show you the incredible stupidity of the disillusioned left wing fanatics. They won't believe all the mainstream media if it doesn't suit them, but as soon as someone shows them a little uncredited photo - they jump with joy that they found the truth. Absolutely unbelievable.

We have had bigger crowds than this at SMALL anti-war demonstrations here in Spain, without the benefit of fancy camera work. It's good to see SOMEBODY in the US reporting the news as it really is. Thanks.

so what? we won! shut up!!!

Oh enlightened ones! The situation in Iraq is far more complex than any imagery, including the above, could possibly reveal. Take a deep breath and allow the drama to unfold as you rock in your comfortable rocker at home. But then, as the Iraqi leadership would like the world to believe, none of this is really happening, right? Besides, today there are a handful of cheering Iraqis. How many were there three weeks ago? Stay tuned.

Regarding your posting of 11:19 PM on 4/9: Can't you stay on topic for just one moment? What happened 60 years ago to millions of people (including my relatives) has no bearing what is happening today. Smarten up and try not to alienate people who might otherwise support you.

If you bozos look very carefully you can also see a grassy knoll, with Lee Harvey Oswald making his escape wearing an Elvis face mask.

You guys will believe anything won't you...some twat comes up with a crackpot notion that this is a fake and 90% of the posters on here immeadiatley act like sheep and go "Duh, oh yeah...I haven't got a brain myself so there must be a conspiracy!!!"

And the next c..t who puts a f.....g Nazi picture on this site will live to regret it...I can hack into your id's, i can find out where you live very easily and some one will be paying you a visit. How's that for paranoia assoles????

I am deeply saddened to see such remarks of distortion and dark comments. I am a European, whom is also a daughter of a Holocauat Surviver. Yes, she was in those camps you deny excisted! If she had lied to me all these years about the true past of those horrific years, how come she is so sick every day , with traumas and scarred from such a mass EXTINCTIONS...now the latest anti Israel waves and anti semtism is mind boggling to me....what is that bothers you so much about Jews, and how did it get so turned around and twisted????? Now Israel is the villan, when she has offered peace - enough is enough, how much can one people be hated and attacked, especially for the 55 year, on top of the HOLOCAUST!?
Israel has offered a few times to return the territories in the WEST BANK, ex. Baraq, yet Arafat choose not to....Including after the 1967 war (again after being attacked by all neighboring countries). Israel was open to let go of the annexed territory as a consequence of the war in exchange for peace with all arab nations.
Suicide bombs are not the answer, and if Israel really did not want PEACE, it would never had returned SINAI with Saddat (after it was attacked by Egypt in 1956). Also, if you parallel Israel to Nazi mentality, be very careful, as Israel never wants to exterminate the Palestinians, they want a partner in the Peace talks, not a strapped bomb....The Germans, and maybe you harbor a similar wish, as they wanted to erase the Jewish People....my questions to you Andy, WHY?
Let's have compassion for both sides in the Middle East, as they are both suffering, both people , and by bashing and distorting true facts, we will never come to global peace!

Re: The Holocaust Picture:
I am deeply saddened to hear and see such remarks of distortion and dark comments. I am a European, whom is also a daughter of a Holocauat Surviver. Yes, she was in those camps you deny excisted! If she had lied to me all these years about the true past of those horrific years, how come she is so sick every day , with traumas and scarred from such a mass EXTINCTIONS...now the latest anti Israel waves and anti semtism is mind boggling to me....what is that bothers you so much about Jews, and how did it get so turned around and twisted????? Now Israel is the villan, when she has offered peace - enough is enough, how much can one people be hated and attacked, especially for the 55 year, on top of the HOLOCAUST!?
Israel has offered a few times to return the territories in the WEST BANK, ex. Baraq, yet Arafat choose not to....Including after the 1967 war (again after being attacked by all neighboring countries). Israel was open to let go of the annexed territory as a consequence of the war in exchange for peace with all arab nations.
Suicide bombs are not the answer, and if Israel really did not want PEACE, it would never had returned SINAI with Saddat 's great help. (also, after it was attacked by Egypt in 1956). Also, if you parallel Israel to Nazi mentality, be very careful, as Israel never wants to exterminate the Palestinians, they want a partner in the Peace talks, not a strapped bomb....The Germans, and maybe you harbor a similar wish, as they wanted to erase the Jewish People....my questions to you Andy, WHY?
Let's have compassion for both sides in the Middle East, as they are both suffering, both people , and by bashing and distorting true facts, we will never come to global peace!

MORE LIES ..each time you fill up the gas tank you are filling it with the blood of Iraki women and children
Sinse there is no liverty also and no free press I say to the control media (SUCK MY DICK! )

SMD

I think most of us don't agree with the anti-Jewish commments here - so let's get back to the topic.

How could anyone possibly believe this event was staged?? You guys are completely naive and believe anything... one little photo taken later in the day, after most people left, and you're jumping up and down, saying it's a staged event!!!

The USA liberated these people from a cruel dictator. They will have soon, the only democratically elected gov't in any of these middle eastern countries. Shame on you for not supporting that.

You cry about the few dead from this war. But don't say anything about the 50,000 Kurds killed during Saddam's Anfal campaign against the Kurds.

Morons.

Thank you for doing the work that our mainstream media constantly fails to do. The photo and its presentation are of a piece with all the other reporting we see in the NYT & most other papers (not to mention the tv news): it's thinly veiled propaganda. Breathtaking indeed! Amazing indeed! that our mainstream media have sunk to this level.

who noticed that out of 5 million residents, only about 200 were in that square, more than half of which were marines and reporters. Only a handful of Iraqis seemed to have been involved in the toppling of the statue while the rest were just watching from the side. The media was clever to lace these photos with the real celebrations which for obvious reasons took place in the Kurdish north and a poor Shia neighborhood in the outskirts of Baghdad. Although I am sure there are plenty of Iraqis who are happy to see Saddam go, this is hardly evidence of Paris/Berlin style jubilations where tens and hundreds of thousands of people were in the streets.

You wonder why folks are against the JEWS? Just look into the News Media, Hollywood, Washington. A race that makes up 4% of the US population controls 70% of the country! Let's take the news this year as example.. Wynona (Horowitz) Ryder, front page for 2 months for stealing a pocketbook. Daniel Pearl the reporter killed in the Middle East, front page for 3 months. Chandra Leavy, Gary Condits girlfriend, front page for 4 months. 3/4ths of the cast of the movie Chicago, front page for past two months. 78% of the Golden Globe winners this year. 9 members of the 20some members of the National Security Council. Martha Stewarts broker. Owners of 4 of the past 5 World Series Champions. 70% of the Hollywood Screenwriters. ALL JEW's. The Florida cemetery in the news for a month due to dumping of unburied bodies.. a Jewish Cemetery! I could go on and on! The Head's of all the TV Networks as well as Disney, Dreamworks, MGM, etc..
IF all Americans new these facts the country would initiate a change tomorrow.
We (I) don't hate Jews, at least not the Religious ones! The problem is, the Religious ones are not the ones in charge! Is not the anti-christ to be Jewish?

I watched live web video cam of the incident. Apparently, the videocam was located on the balcony of a nearby hotel overlooking the US military vehicles and the Saddam statue nearby. What happened was that several military vehicles, including Abrams Tanks & Humvees drove by and stopped outside the hotel. US soldiers came down from their vehicles and walked about the place but on vigil. The images via the webcam were very clear. Then, on the left, a group of (about 15) rowdy youngsters, some removing their shirts as they walked and swinging them round and round and cheering. They walked in a rather organised fashion, as if they had an objective in mind. The soldiers nearby the hotel didn't stop them and also didn't seem to bother. Why didn't the soldiers stop them and check to see if any of them carried arms or bombs strapped to their bodies? The group then proceeded in an almost coordinated way to the landmark where the statue was located. The videocam then trained and zoomed onto the group who started hammering and pulling at something that looked like a lamp protruding from the stand on which the statue stood. Then they climbed on top of each other and threw a rope around it. 10 or 15 minutes later, a US tank drove close to the statue. As the rope was too weak they used a chain instead. The chain was later hooked to the tank and the statue pulled down as the tank reversed. All this was done with embedded reporters at the scene filming. All I can say is that this whole thing was staged. This whole event was viewed all over the world as the webcam was LIVE.

Very important article. I'm so happy you were able to expose the truth in this situation. The only course of action that I would aprove would be an immediate withdrawal. We should then pay reparations to both Al Queada and Saddam Hussein.

Shame on us!

But when Foxnews was showing the event live, they showed a long shot, and you could tell that the square was pretty empty.

thank you

To be conclusive you would have to have a picture of the statue in the state of being pulled down. As it is there is nothing to say when this photo was taken except after the sculpture had been toppled. Could have been the next day. Could have been hours after the fact...One need to be objective.

I think it is despicable that you people would chose to defame a great moment in history like this, you are mongors and shoudl stop communicating with the world

I fell for it. I consider myself very well read on the game this administration calls a liberation. I do not watch TV News that often and saw the shots most of the world has seen and said oh well maybe the people in Baghdad are temporarily feeling a release and all the bombs dropped on them in the last 3 weeks just maybe felt worth it to get rid of such a asshole. But after reading and sizing up the clips it all became apparent that it was soooooo staged. Right down to the guy who put the American flag on the statues head. I can hear his superior screaming in his head set "NO THE IRAQI FLAG DUMMY".

you don't really belive this do you?

Having watched the live BBC coverage of this incident on TV (in London, see 'BBC..HA!' below), I was very surprised at how few Iraqis were present. They seemed to be outnumbered by the international media, stuggling to get as close as possible to the statue. And it was actually pulled down by a US armoured vehicle, not by 'jubilant Iraqis' as many news reports claimed later. The mainstream media coverage, even in advance of this war, has consistently attempted to manipulate public opinion and foster a pro-war attitude. However this 'statue-toppling' public-relations stunt is almost harmless when compared to the complete silence of the media (with the exception of Al-Jazeera, and one or two others, such as The Guardian [guardian.co.uk]) on the issue of civilian deaths, and even of the number of Iraqi soldiers killed - no figures forthcoming from any new channel. The US army, however, has so far managed, in the course of several attacks to kill Arabic, British, Portuguese and Ukranian jourmalists.

On the question of the much-trumpeted 'weapons of mass destruction' which was, at least officially, the main 'justification' for this war, very little has been said by any member of the Bush administration (or anybody else for that matter). A BBC report shown yesterday effectively came to this same conclusion, although it tried to moderate it by claiming that 'futher investigation needed to be done'. But the world's media, following their political masters, managed to sidestep this thorny question and focus instead on the 'liberation' of the Iraqi people (a late-comer on the list of 'justifiable reasons for war') who have been bombed, cluster-bombed, shot at, killed, maimed and mutilated, and now will have to endure months of starvation since, apparently there are not enough troops (!) present to address the pressing humanitarian problems.

Incidentally, a poll included in that same BBC TV report concluded that more than 60% of the British public did not feel that this war had helped to protect their country from terrorist threats. So what has it achieved? Well, it appears that several valuable reconstruction contracts have already been signed with large US firms, at least one of which is from Texas. The world's oil companies are probably now negotiating which oil-fields they will be running in a few months time.

And it's quite likely that there will be no sign of Saddam Hussein himself. Like the elusive Osama bin Laden, he may cease to be such a 'threat to world peace' once his country has been bombed into apparent submission.

I fear that often the reported news is enough for most people. Wrapped up in the daily drive of consumption and production many people have neither the energy nor imperative to care enough to search out alternative media sources. Unfortunately, riding the wave of the majority and reiterating what you heard on the 6 o'clock news is the easiest way to contribute to the watercooler chats which only serve to perpetuate the mentality.

This is a photo for the history books, although once the evangelicals have their way, will there by any "history" to speak about, to remember, any books? Darwin is way too much for ECs to handle, do you honestly think any history following Darwin will be "accepted"? All of this is subject to master manipulation by power holders. Read Goering's quotes about the intelligience of the masses, then assess whether or not you think that "history" as written or interpreted is honest. People must wake up to the fact of the manipulation and infiltration of civil liberties and basic human rights in the USA. They need to assess for themselves if they think these are being eroded over time. Watch out for the swastica replacing "s's" in certain people's names....says some of the people in this town.

The army has actively destroyed pictures of sadaam, why wouldn't they destroy the statues too. Of course if we were lied to by the media, that makes me sad and more distrustful than ever. I hope it has not all been staging,
the hurrahs and smiles.

THE STORIES OF 9/11 THE AMERICAN MEDIA HOPES YOU FORGET
SUSPICIOUS "MIDDLE EASTERNERS" CHEER TERROR ATTACK FROM MOVING VAN

SOURCE: THE NEW YORK POST AND THE BERGEN RECORD

TRIO WHO CHEERED ATTACK FACE BOOT AS ILLEGAL ALIENS

By AL GUART (NEW YORK POST) www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/

September 13, 2001 -- Three men who celebrated as the Twin Towers crumbled are facing deportation, The Post has learned. The men, described as illegal immigrants from the Middle East, were arrested Tuesday afternoon in a white Chevy van near the Meadowlands based on a tip from witnesses who saw them "cheering" and "jumping up and down" in Liberty State Park after the attack, a source said.

Witnesses took the plate number and the FBI sent out an alert to area cops, reading: "Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack . . . Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion."

Port Authority cops nabbed the three as they drove along Route 3 in East Rutherford in the van, which had the words "Urban Moving Systems" painted on it. After grilling the men and searching the van in vain for explosives, the FBI turned the men over to the Immigration and Naturalization Service for deportation.

The feds declined to release the men's identities or nationalities. "The agency has decided it will not make any comments about this at this time," said INS spokesman Kerry Gill. Officials at "Urban Moving" claimed to be unaware of what had happened.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BERGEN RECORD (New Jersey) FIVE MEN DETAINED AS SUSPECTED CONSPIRATORS
Wednesday, September 12, 2001 www.bergen.com/news/2bombvan200109125.htm
By PAULO LIMA Staff Writer

Eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts. The five men, who were in a van stopped on Route 3 in East Rutherford around 4:30 p.m., were being questioned by police but had not been charged with any crime late Tuesday.

However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said. Sources said the van was stopped as it headed east on Route 3, between the Hackensack River bridge and the Sheraton hotel. As a precaution, police shut down Route 3 traffic in both directions after the stop and evacuated a small roadside motel near the Sheraton.

Sources close to the investigation said the men said they were Israeli tourists, but police had not been able to confirm their identities. Authorities would not release their names. East Rutherford officers stopped the van after the FBI's Newark Office broadcast an alert asking surrounding police departments to look for a white Chevrolet van, police said.

"We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side," said Bergen County Police Chief John Schmidig. "Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down."

East Rutherford officers summoned the county bomb squad, New Jersey state troopers, and FBI agents, who waited alongside the van as prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office tried to obtain a warrant to search the van late Tuesday, Schmidig said. The FBI alert, known as a BOLO or "Be On Lookout," was sent out at 3:31 p.m. It read:

"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center. "Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals."

State police Col. Barry W. Roberson confirmed the traffic stop at a late night news briefing at state police headquarters in Trenton. He would not elaborate, however. A business traveler staying at the Homestead Studio Hotel said she watched state troopers drive the suspects away in a procession of state police cars about 5 p.m. "First, they told us we could hang out in the lobby, but then they told us to leave," the traveler said.

At 10 p.m., the hotel guest said she could see at least two police officers searching through the van while a crowd of other officers kept their distance.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE SUSPICIOUS "MIDDLE EASTERN MOVERS" WERE ISRAELIS WITH BOXCUTTERS, EUROPEAN PASSPORTS AND $4000 CASH

SOURCE: ISRAEL NATIONAL NEWS

Arutz Sheva News Service IsraelNationalNews.com 10-26-1

Five young Israelis are "on the verge of collapse," according to family members, as their incarceration in New York on charges relating to the Bin Laden attacks continues. They were arrested on Sept. 11, only hours after the World Trade Center attack, on charges of "plotting to blow up" a New York bridge. Katie Shmuel of the Galilee town of Yokne'am, says that her son Yaron is in "a very critical psychological situation," given that they are not allowed to have visitors and the difficult conditions in which they are being held. "The Israeli Consul-General in New York was allowed to visit only after asking several times and receiving a special permit," Katie told Arutz-7's Yosef Zalmanson today. "He was allowed to talk to them only in English, and only from behind a glass partition. The Consul told me that the boys are in a bad state and that they are being held under difficult conditions."

When asked why the five youths, aged 22-26, are being held, Katie replied with despair: "It's ludicrous. They were on the George Washington Bridge at the time of the bombing, and the FBI had warnings of a terrorist plot, of guys in a white van, to blow up the bridge. So when the FBI saw this van, with my son and his four friends - one of them had a large sum of money, there were two razor knives in the van, and one of the boys is named Omer, which the FBI guys thought was Omar - they put one and one together and got three, and immediately arrested them... For the first few days, the boys were held in an FBI dungeon, tied up, with no clothes and no food."

*The Israeli newspaper Ha'retz revealed on Sept 17 that these were the same men who were seen "celebrating" and "making mocking gestures" as the Twin Towers collapsed.

** The Jerusalem Post reported on October 26 that the Israelis were smiling as they photograhed themselves with the collapsed towers in the background.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MORE SUSPICIOUS ISRAELI "MOVERS" DETAINED WITH DETAILED VIDEO OF SEARS TOWER

SOURCE: THE MERCURY (PHILADEPHIA AREA NEWSPAPER), POTTSTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA

www.zwire.com/site/mercury_101801.html

MICHELLE MOWAD, Special to The Mercury, October 17, 2001

PLYMOUTH (PA) -- Two men whom police described as Middle Eastern were detained in the township by federal immigration authorities after being found with detailed video footage of the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Plymouth Police encountered the men after an officer responded to Pizzeria Uno on West Ridge Pike at 2:40 p.m. Thursday for a report of illegal dumping.

A manager there advised the police officer that a tractor-trailer was observed backed up to the dumpster at the rear of the restaurant. The manager noticed a freshly dumped pile of furniture adjacent to the Dumpster, according to police. The manager confronted the vehicle's operator, a Middle Eastern man, police said.

The man, who later identified himself as Moshe Elmakias, 30, denied that he did anything and fled the scene, heading west on West Ridge Pike... The manager was able to provide township police with the Florida registration number of the tractor-trailer and said that a sign posted on the side of the vehicle read "Moving Systems Incorporated" police said.

The area was searched by township police, and the vehicle was spotted parked on the curb in front of John Kennedy Ford on Ridge Pike. An officer proceeded to make contact with the occupants of the truck by knocking on the cab, according to reports.

A Middle Eastern man, later identified as Ron Katar, 23, exited the sleeper area of the cab and said that the operator was across the street as he pointed toward the Don Rosen Porsche dealer, reports said.

Elmakias and a white female, Ayelet Reisler, 23, were approaching the vehicle from the dealership, but the female then began walking in a different direction, acting as if she were not with Elmakias, according to reports. Reisler was detained and checked for identification. She had a German passport in her name and medication in a different name, police said. Plymouth Police Sgt. Thomas Longo was notified and responded to the incident.

Elmakias allegedly admitted to being behind Pizzeria Uno, although he said that he did not dump furniture, he was only turning around. Elmakias said that his destination was New York and that he was also coming from New York. He said he was in Plymouth because he was supposed to make a pickup in the morning and pointed toward the Storage USA facility on Belvoir Road , police said. Elmakias could not, however, provide a name or telephone number of the customer.

Township police dispatched a request for a Motor Carrier Program Inspector. Officer Gerald Schwartz of the Whitpain Police Department responded. Schwartz discovered through his investigation that the operator's log had been falsified and put the truck out of service due to violations. Inspection of the tractor-trailer's contents revealed a load three-quarters full containing household items, including furniture and boxes. Among the items in the truck was a Sony video camera. Plymouth Police Officer David McCann reviewed the tape found inside the camera. The tape had video footage of Chicago with zoomed-in shots of the Sears Tower, according to police.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation was notified of the incident and all three subjects were transported to the Plymouth Police station. FBI Agents James Sweeney and Richard Tofani arrived at the station and proceeded to investigate both the subjects and their belongings with the assistance of Immigration and Naturalization Services. All evidence collected by Plymouth and Whitpain officers was transferred to federal facilities. Special Agent Linda Vizi, a spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI, could not be contacted for comment on further investigations.

*The names of the 3 "Middle Easterners" named above are clearly of Israeli-Jewish origin.


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WANTED BY FBI: STILL MORE SUSPICIOUS MEN WITH ISRAELI PASSPORTS, BOX-CUTTERS, OIL PIPELINE AND NUCLEAR POWER PLANT PLANS.

SOURCE: THE MIAMI HERALD
www.miami.com/herald/special/news/terrorism/digdocs/088964.htm
Nuclear plants tighten security
FBI seeking 6 men seen in Midwest
BY MARTIN MERZER, CURTIS MORGAN AND LENNY SAVINO
 mmerzer@herald.com OCTOBER 3,2001

WASHINGTON -- As the nation stands on high alert, the FBI is searching for six men stopped by police in the Midwest last weekend but released -- even though they possessed photos and descriptions of a nuclear power plant in Florida and the Trans-Alaska pipeline, a senior law enforcement official said Tuesday.

The Federal Aviation Administration imposed new flight restrictions around nuclear plants nationwide Tuesday, and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission advised the nation's 103 nuclear plants late Monday to fortify security. On Tuesday, agency spokesmen said the FAA's flight restrictions and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's security recommendations were based on Ashcroft's general alert rather than a specific threat. Ashcroft warned that Americans could be struck by another terrorist attack this week.

The incident in the Midwest apparently contributed to the new warning. The six men stopped by police were traveling in groups of three in two white sedans, said a senior law enforcement official, who requested anonymity.

SUSPICIOUS MATERIAL

In addition to the photographs and other suspicious material, they carried "box cutters and other equipment,'' the official said. They appeared to be from the Middle East and held Israeli passports. They were let go after the Immigration and Naturalization Service determined that the passports were valid and that the men had entered the United States legally, the official said.

The FBI declined to comment. An INS spokesman called the report unfounded. ``We have absolutely no information at this point in time to substantiate that story,'' said the agency's Russ Bergeron. It could not be learned in what state the six men were stopped or how they aroused suspicion. It was not known whether their true identities matched those on the passports, or why the FBI was not releasing their names or descriptions.

Investigators think the men almost certainly have changed cars by now and have fled to Canada or elsewhere. Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller were ``furious'' that the INS allowed the men to be released without consulting the FBI, the official said. Ashcroft and Mueller appeared Monday evening at a news conference to announce that the government had ``credible'' but vague information that another wave of terrorist attacks could strike Americans within a week.

ON ALERT

Spokeswoman Rachel Scott said FPL's plants remained at the highest level of alert. ``We are in very close communication with all levels of law enforcement, including the FBI, to ensure we have the security measures in place to protect the plants,'' she said. Also Tuesday, the FAA restricted all flights below 18,000 feet and within 10 miles of 86 "sensitive nuclear sites'' , the agency said. Exceptions can be made for law enforcement, medical and firefighting flights. The 800-mile-long Trans-Alaska Pipeline runs from Prudhoe Bay on the Arctic Ocean to Valdez on the Pacific.


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WORKERS AT ISRAELI OFFICE RECEIVED ADVANCE NOTICE OF THE 9-11 TERROR ATTACK

SOURCE: HA'ARETZ (ISRAELI NEWSPAPER) ENGLISH LANGUAGE EDITION

THIS STORY WAS ALSO CONFIRMED IN THE WASHINGTON POST

www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C

ODIGO SAYS WORKERS WERE WARNED OF ATTACK
By Yuval Dror

Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack.

Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the messages and immediately after the attack informed the company's management, which immediately contacted Israeli security services, which brought in the FBI. "I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't know the sender. .......And I don't know if our information was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made," said Macover. Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OSAMA BIN LADEN CLAIMS HE'S BEING FRAMED

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. There exists a government within the government of the United States. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.... The United States should trace the perpetrators of these attacks to those persons who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own nation could survive.

- Osama Bin Laden (Source: BBC)


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"BY WAY OF DECEPTION THOU SHALT DO WAR."
-THE MOTTO OF THE MOSSAD (Israeli Intelligence)

In 1956, as reported by the Times Of London, during one of Israel's perpetual wars with its neighbors, the Mossad tried to trick the United States into siding with Israel against the Arabs by blowing up a US facility in Cairo and blaming the Arabs for it. The plot was wrecked when the operatives were caught and confessed, creating a huge scandal. And according to Victor Ostrovski, a defector from the Mossad, the USA was tricked into bombing Libya when the Mossad planted a radio transmitter in Tripoli which sent out fake orders to terrorists which the USA could intercept.

When powerful entities resort to deceit and lying they only underscore the weak moral basis of their own cause and the truth will eventually prevail and conquer.

Your article and photo are excellent, and well worth forwarding to help the truth reach as many as possible. However, I hesitate to do that, given that some of the comments below include one by a Holocaust denier. I am Arab, but I can say with all honesty that people like him/her do not do the Arab cause or the cause of truth any service. I don't know what credible sites like yours are supposed to do with such wackos who write in, but I just want to register my distaste for what s/he has written.

i am speechless -- talk about shock 'n awe -- i shouldn't be surprised at all, but if what we saw on tv isn't massive distortion, i don;t know what is.

Compare that distorted lens with the fall of Ceausescu in Romania.

 http://www.romania.com/gifs/flag.jpg

goddamnit -- how many fucking ways can we be lied to?

This is unbelievable! Wake up people. We Iraqis are euphoric at the downfall of Saddam and his regime.
Please remember, the events portrayed in the photo above took place on the first day. As you all know, electricity was cut off a few days after the war began which means no TV and radio (Only a few people have battery operated radios).On that first day, many remained in their homes with no idea that the regime of terror had gone forever.

People like you are the saddest and lowest form of scum living on the planet. Is your life so sad that you have to live in the twilight zone?
Your one sad individual filled with hatred for Jews and anything western who craves attention and spends his life trawling the net for rubbish to feed your warped mind.
Anyway I though the crap you printed was hallarious and anyone who believes such crap is as warped as you my sick friend.

the point would be that the reports were propaganda. that shots were carefully framed to make the crowd appear larger etc. millions of anti-war protesters were given seconds worth of news coverage while a few dozen or hundreds of people in iraq were given an entire day of coverage. it would indicate that the news media is clearly biased (an understatement), which is obvious anyway.

Sadly though, this appears to be a hoax since no one is indicating a source other than "bbc" or "reuters" neither of which appear to have any such photo.

My alien step father told me that the evil asxis of Israel,America and Britain plan to exterminate all males over 40 and all femailes over 30. Anyone who isn't liberal or Jewish is to be exterminated before May 2003. My alien step father told me that after that the Jewish,American liberal controlled media will then invite the Martians to come and form a joint world government that will then pass the law that anyone caught sneezing would immediately be put to death.
We cant believe the current media as its run by non believers the world is soon to be controlled by Martians and Jews and untill then I say death to anyone whi isn't a alien. I will soon publish a photograph of the moon to show you how evil it can look from certain angles. I will then publish a photo of Mars to show you how beautiful it is. Until you see these photos dont believe anything else you read or hear in the media.
I know all you fuck brains will believe me. I love you all.

Regards

Kaspan
Martian abassador to Earth.

You prick. Bet you sit alone in your slum wanking over that photo of that piece of shit in a Nazi uniform. Favorite German officer indeed. What a saddo cunt you are.
Go on get the photo out and have another wank you twat.
Fozzy hahahahahahahaha what a fucking saddo.

Do you imagine that every Iraqi in Bhagdad spontaneously says: "Hey! Let's go tear down that big statue of Saddam!" or do you find it more likely that it is a spur of the moment act of passion started by one or two people who get their friends together and say: HEY! Let's go do something!"

If you find the second course of action more likely, then you will find it no surprise that pavement is visible anywhere in the above picture.

Most Iraqis are too busy worrying about where their next meal is coming from to be too awfully demonstrative.

Andy, your Zionist Masters wanted me to remind you it's Friday.
Time to brush your tooth and change your shorts.
Have a nice day!

After reading the bull shit and evil hatred that some of you creeps have printed all I can say is g-d bless America. G-d bless Bush. G-d bless Britain. G-d bless Blair. G-d bless Israel. G-d bless Sharon.
Thank g-d we have that good in our world.
Iraqi's are now free of one of the most evil scumbag tyrants the world has seen and you morons are angry about that.
Unbelievable. As for the holocast and so called lies, fuck me how comes you lot weren't put down at birth. The world would have been a better place without your evil low life belief's.
Anyway nice talking to you cocksuckers. Carry on printing your crap you small minded shit for brains.

What do we expect? If anyone had any doubt as to the "objectivity" and "freedom" of the western media this should lay that to rest.

In order to justify our next adventure it will be necessary eliminate all semblance of truth in media coverage. I am confident that Bush, his minions and the lauding hounds of the media will accomplish this goal quite effectively.

What do we expect? If anyone had any doubt as to the "objectivity" and "freedom" of the western media this should lay that to rest.

In order to justify our next adventure it will be necessary eliminate all semblance of truth in media coverage. I am confident that Bush, his minions and the lauding hounds of the media will accomplish this goal quite effectively.

I'm alive and well and living in two bedded semi in the suberbs of downtown Syria.
Dont worry about the staue, i can reveal it was only a look alike. We carefully replaced the real ones with look alikes two weeks before the infedels invaded. They are now stored in a warehouse in down town Gaza near Sinatras bar.
I'm cinfident that within the next few days we will slaughter all our enemies and I can return to my luxery villa in Baghdad and I can assure you I and Saddam will ensure the deaths of around about 2 million Iraqi traitors
by torture and a bullet through the head. I cant personally cant wait.
I saw a TV shot of some traitors ransacking my villa and taking my Sony Plasma screen. These persons will be dealt with in time. I am currently arranging for redecorating estimates from the local builders and am assured by Saddam that all costs will be covered by his new regime.
Incidently Saddam says hi to all his friends on this wonderful site. He and Osama are currently holidaying in Majorca and having a wonderful time. They both get pissed every night and try and shag a few western woman. Oh how I miss Saddam. I love him so.
Anyway must dash as I need to write my new information update for Al Jay TV. Now how about starting "they will burn in their tanks.......

We consider this photo (and your work in general) essential for the couterinformation. We will use them, with your permission.
Mario Santostasi
la rivista del manifesto
Roma, Italy
www.larivistadelmanifesto.it

Wheres that bloody Pizza I ordered half an hour ago? Get on your bike and deliver it now instead of reading this shit.

RE: by Jim 10:49am Thu Apr 10 '03
> Those on your website commenting 50 or so running up to the statue. It is very likely that they were those who were flown in days before. How lucky for the Western audience that they all talked fluent English!

> April 06, 2003
"Iraqi exiles fly in to incite anti-Saddam uprisings
Opposition mobilises free Iraqi force
>
> AMONG their ranks were an Iraqi American who had abandoned his grocery store in Missouri and a former nightclub bouncer from London. Hundreds of Iraqi exiles, assembled under the banner of the Free Iraqi Force, opened a new front in the battle to oust Saddam Hussein yesterday after flying to the south of the country on a perilous mission to incite rebellion in its cities."

-------------------------------------------
Could you please provide a link for this? Very hard to substantiate without a link.

And I still haven't seen a link to the PHOTO at the top of this thread. Where did it come from? FOZZY, the thread starterm said it was from the BBC website. How hard can it be to post a link -- standard protocol, especially for something controversial. Where's the goddamn link?

Where is the BBC photo - it seems to be missing

If one watched this scent on BBC as I did, the footage had in part, a little truth in amongst the so called crowds, the British journalist admitting that it was journalists climbing on the tank for a better view. BBC was also covering bombing from across the road; so clearly those viewers saw what was in reality a handful of Iraqis, many journalist and US Marines. The Marines deliberately hung the Stars and Stripes, as the intelligent of the world gasped in horror at another clear sign of the conquering US attitude to this war. It's like the Meadow Lea margine advert...."US you have to be congratulated" Don't you? Sickening hype of the new world Police......force fed on the masses.

If George Bush's state of his country America is any reccomendation...he should be paying attention to his own backyard! Not Iraqs

Lynedl Annabella Darling. Hahahahahahaha. There speaks the voice of the real world from her mansion in Knightsbridge.
Fucking whore.

Before I start sorry for my bad english, i'm a French Canadian. If you can't be bothered with my long, useless and crappy post plz read the last 3-4 paragraphs, they are the more relevating.

Whether the Holocaust happened or not I don't wanna argue, but I sincerly believe it happened, no matter what was the number of ppls and it's something that should have never happened.

The war in Afghanistan imo was justified, the entire country was mined and led by dictatorship that refused to co-operate with the US to capture the Al Qaeda members. Afghanistan was full of brain washed idiots and terrorists, I think the war was justified and it have done a severe blow to terrorism.

Also, why does in a big majority, the terrorism organizations on the US official list are practically attribuated to a unique religion, when there's also a lot of terrorism in S. America, Ireland and a few europeans countries.

I am happy that the Iraqis are free of Saddam, but there's one thing I don't like and I would guess that most doesn't either.

It is the fact that the US always realise there's a law about it if it "happens to them".

For exemple in the 70's, the CIA assasinated the Democratic Prime minister of Chile(elected by the peoples) that was in big disagreement with the U.S. politics, then, remplaced him with a dictatorship. Then they say Fidel Castro is an evil Dictator, same with Saddam, same with Pyongyang, well... you get the point.

Another exemple, it was against the "laws" to show 5 US POWS... yet they have shown several thousands of Iraqis POWS, Taliban and Al Qaeda members being totally humiliated(I have no sympathy but they shouldn't show this kind of stuffs) on TV.

Their constant support of the Israelis actions, through politics, resources, etc... is sick.I think the hatred towards the American comes from the fact Israel is at the moment, probably the biggest threat to peace and that the US decides to support them. Palestine is the unique country to still be occupied in the 21th Century. Everyday childrens, innocents humans dies there. If Israel stopped invading them and stayed inside their territory, the entire muslim world would be a lot more stable, with less hatred towards the Americans and Democracy.

Does Saddam have WMDs or is trying to acquire WMDs?
Most likely.

Is Saddam an tyrant?
Yes.

Is there terrorism in Iraq?
Maybe, most likely.

Does the Iraqis deserves freedom?
Certainly.

Does the US honestly care?
Certainly NOT.

If US were really concerned about global peace, then they would probably stop supporting Israel, stop ignoring Pyongyang's dangerous actions and would probably get ride of other dangerous dictators and terrorists that have been in power far too long.

The US wants Iraqis oil and a presence into a key Arab country, and the fact that most americans doesn't wanna see the reality is very pissing me off, they refuse to see that the reasons given to them by their president is filled with propaganda and lies... The only thing they want is a reason to attack Iraq and achieve their goals which is Oil and a presence in a key Arab country.

I think I've read somewhere lately that slighty over 30% of the world-wide oil consommation was by the USA alone. If Yankees stayed home and stopped invading countries, they wouldn't need to invade the Arab countries for Oil.

It's always funny when I see Bush saying the Iraqis deserve better then torture... The US doesn't use the torture but they used to send captured enemies in Egypt so that they could practice torture on them for informations. Of course, the tortured prisoner doesn't want another free torture ride in Egypt, so as soon as he's back in the USA he is very co-operative.

There's far worse country in Africa with extremly evil tyrants and tribal leaders there, yet, the USA doesn't care because in their opinion, a certain human = not = another human of a different nation or race. Patriotism is far too high up their arse. I have no problem with being patriotic, if they are patriotic equally with everyone, not just the US soldiers and victims of the "terrorism" in the Arab countries.(What about that american girl killed by an Israeli bulldozer?)

Israel has violated more UN rules then Iraq, and in fact, probably most countries in the world. Remember Jessica(I think, very sorry if I am wrong on the name) that was rang on by an Israeli bulldozer? Why does the US media ignores it? Is it because the Israeli driving the bulldozer didn't even bothered to get her out of his way, and just said to himself "oh well, easier to pass over her, so let's do it!"

That same person was carried on by the palestinan crowd with an american flag on her dead body, while everywhere else in the world, the US flag was burning.

If the Holocaust didn't happens, none of this would happens today. Hitler and Capitalism have drove this world crazy.

And to end this I would love everyone of you to take a look at this:

Here's the list of countries bombed by the USA after the end of World War II, dressed up by the historian William Blum:

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yougoslavia 1999

In how many of these countries, the bombardements have made rise up an democratic Governement, respectfull of human's rights?

Choose your Answer:

a)None
b)Zero
c)None of them
d)Not a single one

I think the US should watch their back, because strong anti-US sentiments are growing even in their allied country(like over here) and one day it's all gonna blow up right into their face. They uniquely notice what they are doing good, and what others are doing bad.

" Notice how many Iraqis are chanting things like "Thank You George Bush". Non-English speaking Muslims at the point of 'liberation' would only be shouting religious phrases, thanking 'God' for their saving. I can't believe these groups haven't been taught the phrases phonetically. It's VERY obvious these scenes are FOR the cameras, and not an extraordinary event simply captured by journalists. Also, it's worth noting... many of these Iraqis in Baghdad are holding aloft identical images of George Bush to one another. If we are to believe our 'Regimes', simply owning such an image would have been punishable by death only days ago....so where do we think these pictures and American flags came from? "

Quote from www.BU$hWhacker.net taken from www.funkspace.com

Just a few points:

Firstly, the BBC did show the footage of the statue being toppled - they did so live, on web and TV.

Secondly, the flag which was drapped over the head of the statue was that from the Pentagon on 9-11 day. It would therefore be unlikely that it was the impromptu actions of a minor US marine. To use the very same flag that was flown on 9-11 day is highly significant and highly symbolic. Think about that for a minute. The majority of Americans believe that Saddam Hussein was directly involved in the 9-11 attacks - indeed some fail to differentiate between the secular Hussein and Islamic fundamentalist Osama bin Laden - thereby reinforcing the dubious connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda

Thirdly, some of the happy people photographed during the so-called liberation were not locals but actually members of the Iraqi National Congress militia which had been flown in by the 'Coalition' into the south of Iraq so as to be hailed as liberators. These then are the people who'll become the puppet regime in the 'new' Iraq.

In conclusion, to say that all of this is mere coincidence is seriously missing the point. Nothing happens during a military campaign without it having been planned that way. So, of course, the toppling of the statue had to have been staged. In trying to liberate Iraq, the military propagandists have often declared the need to capture the hearts and minds of the populace. But whose populace were they talking about - our's in the West or the Iraqi's? Go on, you figure it out - it's not hard!

See:  http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396043 |  http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID66/17554.html

You guys in the UK and the US have a serious problem with democracy. Free press and media is the key-stone of every democratic society. I feel lucky that I live in a country where the media reported immediately what you are now realising, namely that the whole performance was a set up. The reports we got down here were that among the 200-400 strong crowd many were actually reporters. I have the impression that the war you are watching is a different one that we are. Did you get reports of the frightened and desperate people inside their homes at the same time that show took place? I just ask the British and American people to read their own history and see photos of the liberation of Paris and many other European cities by their own troops in WW2. That WAS a liberation with hundreds of thousands of people in the streets cheering the allied troops in real joy. This mascarade in the centre of Baghdat is an insult to those millions of people who gave their lives to liberate Europe from nazi occupation.

I am sorry to pour cold water on your efforts to discredit or downplay the significance of what happened in Fardus Square. Your version of "the truth" is so limited and you yourselves are guilty of what you accuse the BBC et al of doing.

I watched the events live on BBC television. The presenter was completely aware of the limited number of Iraqi people involved. The Iraqi panel made comment and explained why there were so few involved at that time. The camera shots repeatedly informed us of the wider scene in the square. The above photo is nothing new and this "shot" was beamed around the world.

This reporting and subsequent comments by world leaders was done within the wider context of groups of cheering Iraqi people welcoming those they saw as their liberators.

I find it sad that a moment of good news, after weeks of tragic and painful images of suffering and terror should be dismissed by you, in such a cynical fashion.

The truth of all this is that the activities of a brutal dictator, who ruled by fear and terror, for his own gain, are being brought to an end. The Iraqi people have paid a huge price for this to take place and none of us, accept God can judge the rights and wrongs of this.

We should not,in, the comfort and security of our own homes under-estimate the sense of joy, freedom and relief that these people will be re-discovering in future days.

I was moved to see their joy and relieved to see that after so many years of pain and terror, perhaps I was witnessing the re-birth of hope for the next generation of Iraqi. It is so sad that all you can do is seek to snuff this out.

The shame is yours.

The problem remains that people the world over are taken in by what they see on TV or hear on the radio.Basically it still works.Most people are still brainwashed, heavily programmed. This is the most staged or controlled war there has ever been.People want to think that most Iraqis are happy with the situation.But the reality is that it leaves a huge void for them which is equally as dangerous or even more so.There could be civil war in Iraq.Saddam had his foot firmly on a can of worms.This could give US an excuse to send even more troops there as the situation cries out for a solution.The Iraqis clearly don't want to be ruled by US military.This causes more tension in the whole area.Also US would like to occupy area to launch more attacks on neighbouring countries in the name of regime change.The plot thickens, instability increases,the Arab world erupts, US troops become victims of more suicide bombings and get trigger nervous again. The world economy suffers,American economy collapses,China and North Korea step up militarization because of US threat.
Eventually the whole world gets destroyed in a nuclear war and we all die.Maybe we deserve it for waking up and realising that we are duped by the evil manipulators.

this article is rubbish. i watched the whole thing on the 24 hr news channels. they showed loads of long shots the whole time. the iraqis were having a go at that statue for about an hour getting a rope around its neck and taking a sledgehammer to its base without getting anywhere before the us vehicle showed up. there was no doubting whatsoever what they wanted to do. you are just peddling cynical bollocks. go and live in syria.

i'm fed up with everyone harping on the negative side only. clearly these are people who now have bad consciences because they opposed what was clearly a successful and justified war. now all they can find to do is carp and whine moan and whinge to try and cover up the fact that they've been comprehensively routed in public opinion and by facts on the ground.

you anti-war cretins lost. now get a life

My daughter and I immediately, independently noticed - no women.

I KNEW IT! I DIDN'T BELIEVE THOSE TV PICTURES BECAUSE I KNEW HOW THE MEDIA STAGE-MANAGED THE "CHEERING KUWAITI CROWDS WAVING LITTLE AMERICAN FLAGS" FOOTAGE BACK IN 1991

Who gives a crap, they must have staged a dozen other statues also. And probably had thousands of pictures made up for the people to burn. I guess you are one who thinks the people of Iraq Were happier when Sodom was killing them by the thousands, and they dare not speak.

on the toppling of the statue, a Marine put the flag over the statues head upside down, why? Being former military an upside down flag is a sign of distress. Am I the only one who picked up on this? And the fact that it was a Marine that did it, with several other dedicated marines around, it seems odd that no one said anything to the person placing the flag over the statues head.

on the toppling of the statue, a Marine put the flag over the statues head upside down, why? Being former military an upside down flag is a sign of distress. Am I the only one who picked up on this? And the fact that it was a Marine that did it, with several other dedicated marines around, it seems odd that no one said anything to the person placing the flag over the statues head.

The President George Bush has had a pissing contest with Saddam Hussein over Iraq. The President having had nuclear implants to his penis has been succefull in urinating on all of the Iraqi people. Whilst deposed Saddam Husseins' Minister of Media denied one drop had fallen over Iraq, the Minister went on to say Hussein had "pissed without stopping once for 30 years". The Pentagon stated today"It was an unqualified success", though sources behind the The Hawks have admitted there was some leakage during match, as several large drops of the Presidents water have also been reported to fall on Britain and Australia whilst shaking of excess urine; this has sparked speculation that the excess will leave a stain that cannot be remmoved by controlled media coverage. The Former Minister of Media in Iraq told reporters today that Iraqi Tanks surround Washington.

I assert that the weight of evidence is that there was a large enthusiastic crowd. I was about to suggest (without evidence) that the indymedia photo is faked. However, I can obey Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".

Here is my analysis of how this guy made an error, and how you were misled. By "you" I mean everyone who visits the site  http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=55268&group=webcast

1. The referenced BBC article appears to be  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2933707.stm

2. This BBC article has two graphics.
a. a closeup of the falling statue -  http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39075000/jpg/_39075059_toppled203.jpg
The closeup appears to show a large and enthusiastic crowd.


b. A longshot of the square -  http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39073000/jpg/_39073791_webcamview203.jpg
The long-shot appears to show an empty square.

3. How can we reconcile these images? Welllllll -- note that the long-shot is a webcam. Hence the name "webcast."

7. Thus, the skeptic has compared a huge crowd pulling down the statue with a webcam picture hours later.

8. Go ahead. Go to the BBC link  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2933707.stm

>

Hi, great thread... someone posted a list of places to post articles and comments, here's another one:

 http://www.thechasm.net/ssman/index.php?rid=&S=8b53ac439a72353799f8ee31096fa26e

They don't censor/block :)

 http://www.nowarforisrael.com

Anti-semitism? No, anti-satanism / anti-zionism.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 http://www.nowarforisrael.com

The truth is even more terrifying. The toppling of the Saddam statue didn't just accidentally happen. It was part of Jay Gardner's plan to bolster what he had advised the Bush administration of, that Iraqis would rise up on joy at the US arrival. Jay Gardner is of course Cheney's choice to head Iraq. I say, No more US puppets who can be bought by the size of the business contracts the US offers!

...who's to say for sure at what point in the event this photo was taken? minutes or hours after the statue came down? have the people already dispersed and gone home?
I'm inclined to believe that only dozens were there, but propaganda works both ways, doesn't it?
The truth is that it's not possible to know unless you're actually there! And THAT is the saddest part.

Thank you for posting this photo.
The only thing that I would raise issue with is the language that you use at the end of your commentary, "shame on them." While the coverage of this war has been absolutely non-objective and has served to 'win' this war as much as the F-16s did, I don't think it's useful to take a moralizing stance. One thing that I think is NOT a useful strategy is the moralizing tone that the left often uses.

I think this is so worth the U.S. freedom and we wanted that statue to go down so there.

Its terrifying to realize how easily most of us, even those of us who consider ourselves to be independent thinkers, can fall victim to propaganda in the absence of independent reporting. Thanks, and keep it up as long as you can.

I watched the entire event on the internet, live via MSNBC video which has been on most of the time the past few weeks looking in that general direction. I watched the US tanks drive up, a crowd start to assemble, and when it was around 200 or do, 3-4 of them managed to get onto the statue pedestal. I won't argue that the crowd was encouraged somehow by our side, although I doubt it, I do argue that your assertion that most of the crowd were our troops is entirely wrong.

Eventually the vehicle recovery unit with a boom on it came on scene. By this time the crowd was probably 300 in the immediate area around the statue and you could see more standing around down the street to the left when the camera panned that direction. Also, the Statue wasn't "conveniently" located in front of the Hotel. If you look at a Baghdad street map, you'll see statues at most major intersections. What are you trying to imply?

My point isn't so much as your implications are wrong, it is that I'm seeing a trend now where the opposition to that Moron that has taken over our White House, are behaving more like his propaganda machine.

There seems to be a desperate attempt to twist the truth to prove a point on both sides of the issues. I also get the impression there is disappointment among the anti-war protestors that there aren't more dead all around.

you are an idiot ! apparently you saw the ending only & not the beginning of this whole statue episode on that day ! half-assed reporting is always better than the whole story ~~right ????

Full analysis here. LOLOLOL. nice propaganda whitewash.. fake fake fake fake.

Thank you for exposing the real story. Too many times we Americans are fooled by the propoganda that our censored News media broadcast all the time. I and a growing number of Americans are so fed up with the lies and false propaganda that we have stopped watching the TV's. Our media is controlled and even if a reporter wants to tell the real story they will be threatened or fired. The American Media is owned by the government and they broadcast whatever the government wants. America is in distress!
A concerned American
Dale

Truly this is a master propaganda campaign .The whole country will surely feel ashamed to see all these happening. But,be aware of this fact:the whole city of Baghdad killed their hours in darkness.
As far as I know,Iraqi people are very proud of their civilisation.They will never "welcome" the A-B troops in this way.If there had been,the number will never be more than "dozens ".CNN,as well as BBC or ABC,has won the propaganda campain,as they have done in the past.As for the very truth,--Hush!i darenot say in such a loud voice--those journalists who lost their lives in Baghdad should have more to anounce---

actually, I think your contrasting photos tend to support the idea that it was taken at the same time. because looking up at the sky will show the sky as brighter than the reflection of the sky on the ground

but, it's till speculation. so, Fozzy or someone please cite the place on BBC or Reuters where this photo supposedly came from. Or explain yourself

Shame on CNN, Shame on Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld...Shame on The Carlyle Group and The Haliburton Company.

God Bless the Whole World, no exceptions.

Shame on CNN, Shame on Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld...Shame on The Carlyle Group and The Haliburton Company.

God Bless the Whole World, no exceptions.

a slow day in hollywood, extras were flown earlier that day to avoid night time bombing , very good observation

israeli guy: I don't think your color strips match the sky in both instances. Actually, it seems like your two photos indicate that it could very well be that the two were taken at approximately the same time. Because one is looking up at the bright sky, while the other is looking down at the reflection of the sky on the ground

Anyway, it's speculation. Fozzy (bear references...) or whoever needs to explain themselves and hopefully cite a published photo

The camera can always lie - the truth is outside the cropping. Remember the searing napalm shot from Vietnam? How many photographers were outside the frame doing nothing except composing their shots? The whole invasion is sickening and sadly, US troops seem less able than Brits to run checkpoints. Bush/Blair haven't won my heart and mind - they won't in Iraq, either. Just out of shot of the world's media now, there are lots of little Saddams and Bin Ladens being nurtured on hate. All for US empire-building. How sad. How stupid. Good on you, Michael Moore!

Here you go.. i showed you exactly WHERE FROM did i take the sky clips

a valuable site to visit is the media research center or mrc .com a conservative watchdog group ,they love to bash the liberal bias ,very entertaining to hear their slant ,a real must

another poster DID post link at an earlier video shot. not sure if standrad html tags work here or not, but link here too. then you can evaluate better.

your picture and commentary are misleading
by no 3:02pm Thu Apr 10 '03
Your picture must have been taken quite some time after the statue fell. Here is a picture that was taken immediately after:
 http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=310132&group=webcast
You can see that there are significantly more people. I would estimate that there are maybe four times as many as in your picture. Still not that many compared to the size of Baghdad, or, say, compared to the size of an American antiwar rally. But more than your picture and commentary would lead us to believe.

actually it's too big to post inline here - it would break the width:

THE EARLIER VIDEO PHOTO:
 http://www.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/statue9.jpg


------------------------------------

BUT I"M STILL WAITING FOR LINK to the story of them 'bussing in' Iraqis who'd been in exile in America.

How hard can it be to post a link -- to be credible??

In setting up any TV video shoot, the key editorial decision is what you will leave OUTSIDE the TV frame, moreso than what you select to feature inside the frame. The same can be said for framing a political debate. The Rockefeller Foundation-financed "anti-war movement" is pre-programmed to focus on the Oil companies, rather than on the bankers who loan them the money to produce the oil... and who also loan governments the money to finance their wars, and then loan more to rebuild what's been bombed.

in whichever light you choose to view this incident, why should any of us give a shit about a fucking statue when the truth is living breathing feeling people are dying?
honestly are there not more important things to be spending our time on?

in whichever light you choose to view this incident, why should any of us give a shit about a fucking statue when the truth is living breathing feeling people are dying?
honestly are there not more important things to be spending our time on?

in whichever light you choose to view this incident, why should any of us give a shit about a fucking statue when the truth is living breathing feeling people are dying?
honestly are there not more important things to spending our time on?

Anybody who believes this was staged is a moron. You guys believe anything thrown at you. You guys were probably believing every word out of the Iraqi Information minister!!

Now I'll let you get back to your protests and cynical complaining and conspiracy theories...

When they say that to be a liberal you have to be sick in the head first is true, This Shit will win bigest Bullshit award ever.
What a joke!!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

It is true the media are only showing the people in the surrounding areas; however, any intelligent person knows that for obvious reasons, no more than 30-50 people are going to be in the streets at this time. Only a few are brave enough to publicly express their happiness in such a dangerous time … the rest are at home praying for their lives and praying this nightmare ends soon.

Please think twice before you make an ignorant comment or decide to take a side.

God Bless the WHOLE WORLD!
cristina

A photographer, video or still, will often frame a picture so it yields the most dramatic image. Definitely an editor will usually choose the most "photogenic" images. And the public responds to that.

As to the journalists' death, the story below my signature--uncut--gives a statement by the colonel who was in command of the US tanks that fired at the building. Weren't the journalists on about the 5th or 6th floor? The colonel says his troops were taking fire from bunkers at the *base* of the hotel. Bad / errant shot I'd say. Xin loi; fortunes of war.

PS--The troop who put the American flag on the statute (inadvertently upside down, a distress signal whether he knew it or not) was ordered to do so by an officer. Another officer ordered him to take it down so it wouldn't seem that Americans were "conquerers."

Don't rush to judgment and you'll have less crow to eat. They don't call uit "the fog of war" for nothing. . . .

Horace Coleman

[Los Angeles Times]
 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-war-colonel11apr11,1,287723.story

WAR WITH IRAQ

Colonel Apologizes for Journalists' Deaths, Defends Actions
a d v e r t i s e m e n t


By David Zucchino

April 11, 2003

BAGHDAD -- The Army colonel who ordered his tanks to fire on the Palestine Hotel, killing two journalists, apologized Thursday for the deaths but said he had no choice because his unit was under attack by Iraqis operating there.

"I'm sorry to say it, but I'm the guy who killed the journalists," said Lt. Col. Philip deCamp, whose unit has taken control of the presidential palace compound across the Tigris River from the hotel. "I'm really sorry, and I feel badly for their families, but I had no choice. My soldiers' lives were in danger."

DeCamp said Iraqi fighters in bunkers at the base of the hotel Tuesday had fired AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades at his tank unit. The Americans returned fire with 120-millimeter tank rounds, he said.

Outside the palace gates, DeCamp encountered Adrien Jaulmes, a French journalist staying at the Palestine.

"I'm very sorry about that, but I think you know what was happening in those bunkers at the base of the hotel," DeCamp said.

Jaulmes nodded. "Yes, yes," he said.

Pressured by DeCamp, the reporter acknowledged that the U.S. had, in the colonel's words, "done the right thing" in Baghdad.

Then Jaulmes had a question of his own: What would the colonel like to say to French readers?

DeCamp brightened. "Hey, I love the French," he said. "I'm French. They were on the wrong side of this one, but we'll stick with them because they're our allies."

--David Zucchino

Chomksy is right. This picture of a human shield was censored by the media!

Thank heavens there is now a site where all the deluded, hatefilled anti-American - Pro Saddam headcases can gather. At least that keeps the rest of us safe from them. This is a public service. Anyone who can look at that picture and the pictures of the statue toppling and not know that the picture you are lauding is false, is too moronic to bother with. The pictures that were shown live on every news service in the world were false..and this shitty photograph is real? LOLOLOL..Allow me to introduce you to Photoshop.

The mind is a sad thing to waste. The US is a vast wasteland or, the rest of the rest of the world is a vast wasteland. If you are not American and continue to buy Americana like, American life styles - hoodlum chic, then YOU are the wasteland.

Finally a site that explains what happened! For moment I almost believed all the propaganda but thanks to you now I know the truth.

Omar

Glad to see the article-While watching the news report on TV I was surprised when they showed the shot in your article. It was oblivious very few people were participating. So much propaganda - how disappointing.

I wondered how long it would be until some wider shots were shown that would tell the real story. I've been watching the news reports on the goings on in Iraq and notice the same shots are played over and over. Some of these shots are shown on the screen with two or three other images so as to induce a little sensory overload. This draws peoples attention away from the seams in the loops of video being played over and over on all the news channels.

The war is a tribute to Karl Rove's propaganda machine, strong on technique, weak on integrity and use of facts. This photo is a small part of the ongoing deception, obscuration, exaggeration, misrepresentation which conned the citizenry and an indolent congress into going to war. Continued propaganda should be of no surprise to any observer. One can only hope and pray that the rebuilding of Iraq will be as efficient as its destruction, and that honesty and factual reporting might replace crass marketing. Miracles can happen. Pray a lot.

Why on earth would the BBC fall "hook line and sinker" for a "propaganda coup" staged by the US troops,when their anti/war/US hysteria has been so obvious.

I see nothing sinister in the US troops pulling down Sadams statue, for goodness sake, if a few Iraqi's wanted to lend a hand,so what. The marxist media obviously staged a staging so that all you loonies could start screeching about it. Are you all totally thick?? Why don't you ever QUESTION anything you are told ?

Why cannot you accept the fact that you were all wrong and just go home, hey? You are starting to sound pathetic.

Could the author please put (or email me) the URL of the picture from the BBC website?

Thank you very much.

No surprize here of what this propaganda machine is capable of. Makes you wonder how much--water? or extra processed food packages? they gave those Iraqi men (kind of like our raging Laker's fans here) to parade around smiling and yelling in front of the cameras?

Free press huh? These are sad times. I am very afraid for my children and their future. And I will not stop fighting, I will not stop telling the truth, and I will not forget what former governer Bush and his regime have done. Stand strong people. We only have a couple more years of these people and then we can take them out. If you are not registered to vote, do it today.

You know, we would not be having such an argument if the bulk of Americans (like me) would turn off CNN or CBS and get on the internet to view the war coverage from around the world. I have been doing so for the past 2 months and it has opened my eyes even wider to the fact that the American Media is not balanced, accurate, not fair.
I was a supported of Bush and voted for him in the past election, but I will not in the next election. I believe he is a good person but I do not believe he is running the show. The media is running the show. Forget the government within a government theory.. The news & the security council has 'wagged this dog'. Have you looked at Bush's face lately... he has aged 10 years in the past 3 months.. he is not in control. Now we are beginning to see why Clinton stayed in Media trouble for 7 years... because he failed to do what th Israel Lobby wanted done, and because he had Arafat visit and the peace talks, etc... Strange that each time Clinton was in the hottest part of his various media fires, we shot a few Cruise Missle at Bin Laden, or other Arabs. The the media would relax a bit. Why was Jimmy Carter ran out of power after 4 years.. because he was an honest man who would not cater to these same power hungry people. Strange how the Iran hostages rescue mission two weeks before the election just happen to fail due to ...accidents! Yea.. right!!!
Remember what Billy Graham told Richard Nixon a year or so before Watergate...

And US religious leader Billy Graham and President Richard Nixon once had the following exchange, which was caught on tape:
GRAHAM: The Jewish stranglehold on the media has got to be broken or this country's going down the drain".
NIXON: "You believe that?"
GRAHAM: "Yes, sir."
NIXON: "Oh boy. So do I. I can't ever say that but I do believe it"

Last year Graham even admitted to this exchange.

JEWISH MEDIA BOSSES: SUMNER REDSTONE (VIACOM-CBS-MTV-UPN-BET), MICHAEL EISNER (DISNEY-ABC). NORM PEARLSTINE (TIME). WALT ISAACSON (CNN NEWS) ANDY LACK (NBC NEWS) to name a few.

MORE JEWISH MEDIA BOSSES: ART SULZBERGER (NY TIMES) MORT ZUCKERMAN (U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT & NY DAILY NEWS) RECENTLY DECEASED KATHERINE MEYER GRAHAM (WASHINGTON POST) PETER KANN (WALL STREET JOURNAL) STEVEN SPIELBERG (HOLLYWOOD)

OTHER BIG NAME MEDIA JEWS: AARON BROWN, WOLF BLITZER, MIKE WALLACE, TED KOPPEL, BARBARA WALTERS, JEFF GREENFIELD, CHRIS WALLACE, MORLEY SAFER, LARRY KING, WILLIAM KRISTOL

The Jewish Pentagon gang of Perle, Wolfowitz , and Feith represent 3 of the top 4 civilian leadership positions of America’s armed forces.

PENTAGON: The Pentagon is under the control of a hard core group of Jewish moles led by the maniacal Richard Perle. The civilian Defense Policy Board actually wields more control over the military establishment than the Defense Secretary or the generals and admirals. There are a number of other Jews who serve on this board (Kissinger, Cohen, Schlessinger, Adelman, Abrams). The notoriously belligerent Perle, nicknamed the "The Prince of Darkness", is Chairman of the Board. Perle is also a former Director of The Jerusalem Post and serves on the Board of Directors of several Israeli companies.
The Undersecretary of Defense is Paul Wolfowitz, another Jew who lived in Israel as a teenager and has family living there now.
The Undersecratary of Defense Policy is Douglass Feith, a Jewish award winner whose law firm has offices in Israel.

This site is filled with unbelievable bullshit from close minded sheeple who don't actually give a shit what happens,as long as they can all stay in their majority. That is the mark of a true loser, not to mention coward. Yes, war is more exciting than peace, I agree completely. But you eat all the shit the mainstream media feeds you. Don't get me wrong, I believe that this may have happened - Saddam was an oppressive regime, and two thirds of the country hate him. But don't have blind faith in any government.
Us liberals are not "iraqi loving faggots". We believe that the United states should practice what it preaches at the very least. If all the "government" cared about was human rights for the oppressed, we would have some issues at home, and other priorities abroad.
One last point. You guys have got to learn to spell! It is no good arguing a weak point as an adult or youth, while spelling it like a fucking six year old. It sorta takes away from the validity of the whole thing.
Peace out yo, it's all good. Let the herb flow!!!

To all people who oppose the US fighting for freedom, please move. You belong in a shithole of a country where perhaps you would like to be told when and what you can do. Move to a place where I dont have to hear your faint squeel of a tree-hugging whiny voice. In short, get the hell out of the USA. Why dont you throw another "peace" rally and burn stuff down, and assault police. Makes me sick how you are so hypocritical to your own beliefs.

P.S. - Your not looking at the sky in the bottom picture, your looking at the smoggy city. Notice how the camera is PANNED down....pretty hard to see the sky when your looking down.

Glad he is gone, glad the statue is gone, and hope that you will go too

to dream is not a sin

I find it entirely likely that the US faked the "victory celebration."

However . . . this picture doesn't PROVE it was faked unless it was taken at the same time as the "official" photo(s).

Any indication of when THIS picture was taken??

Sam

Attention, your aluminum foil hats are ready, please pick them up immediately. Shhhhh is that a black helicopter that I don't hear?


Sheesh, why don't you guys go read your "Catcher in the Rye" books...

most of all those images you saw were not from american television camera's...they were from the abu-dabi and other middle eastern station...US Army propaganda my ass.

This article in itself is liberal propaganda. The Iraqis are very pleased that saddam is leaving. YES THE HOLOCAUST DID HAPPEN, AND PICTURES TELL A THOUSAND WORDS (TRUE WORDS). DO NOT FALL FOR THIS LIBERAL TRAP! USA IS A GREAT COUNTRY THAT IS ONLY HELPING THE IRAQI PEOPLE!

I agree that it is obvious that this was a staged event just like the ones Saddam staged. The one thing that just dumbfounds me is why people continue to behave like sheep and not only accept this clap trap but publish it.

What's your point? I watched this live on TV and this photo -- if unaltered -- looks like it was take some time after the statue was brought down and dragged away. And, yeah I'd say there were several dozen people in the crowd that brought it down, not hundreds. So what?

If you're so independent and honest, and so opposed to propaganda, why don't you tell us who took this photo, and when they took it?

Indymedia is about as independent as Saddam's newspapers.

...and all the other coverage of citizens rejoicing that Saddam's regime is crumbling has been staged too. It's not hard to assume that most Iraqi’s are truly pleased this S.O.B. is gone. Saddam was a cruel, sadistic leader and whether this was "staged" or not misses that larger point.

No sh-t the media manipulates this isn't a news flash.

ABC's April 11th "Nightline" (in Eastern time zone) featured a Robert Krulwich segment that began with the tight shot of people stomping the Saddam statue-- and then zoomed out wide to reveal the view of the mostly empty Square you see on this page. Tellingly, Krulwich titled his segment, "The Art of Framing." The networks often admit their manipulation days later- once the emotional impact has been made and viewers have mentally moved on to other news topics.

Andy
are you trying to make fun of people who deny the holocaust or are you actually one of those confused "brave souls" who thinks it did not happen. It is truly frightening that people who are so ignorant about history have the confidence to articulate their idiocy. At the same time, the fact that historical evidence in every media disproves what you said is somewhat assuring as nobody with any interest in the truth or history would actually beleive your theory for one second. I assume the photos and videos of German Nazis standing with the corpses of Jews, Gypsies, Communists etc were airbrushed? Or were they Zionsist dressed up as Germans. I am not myslef a Zionist but I find your confusion sad and troubling. If you want to make up lies that are actually swallowed by other people you need to be more convincing. This is very unsavy propaganda and will olny successfully reach utter ignoramouses or rapid anto-Zionists, anti-semites, or philo-Germans who have to make up stories to justify their perverse prejudices. Sorry. Better luck next time.

You may call it that, but to our people it is freedom. I have lost 23 friends and family to Saddam. My uncle lived after torture, but he still will not tell me what was done to him. He doesn't do much except stare into space and screams in his sleep. Now that my country is free I am going back. I love the people of the USA and the education I have received and I hope that this will allow me to help my country get a better life.I do not understand people that talk bad of their country that has done this wonderful thing.

nice scoop... kind of what one imagined really... the statue wasn't built to last anyway and the photos won't either. Iwo Jima? That was a picture!

Would any thinking American expect anything else from the fool who now resides or dictates from the oval office?I have been so disgusted with the government since the cover-up of the Kennedy murders that if I was a millionaire,I'd live in another country.I used to be proud to say I'm American;after this rape of a nation I can't feel anything but shame.

that the entire media portrayal of the toppling of the statue was a further extension of propaganda.

200-1000 people does not constitute headlines like "Baghdad celebrates fall of saddam". that kind of turnout isn't exceptional considering it's ~ 5 million people.

the fact is they are still under occupation, they have no rule, they have little to eat. there remain many serious problems that the media overlooks.

A picture is worth a thousand words--and the statue is long gone in this photo--so you make up your own tale, amazing! Not only do you hear what you want to hear, now you see what you want to see. Yes, CNN, which by it's own testimony was a shill for Iraqi propaganda, along with all the other US and foreign media have secretly conspired to hide the truth--why I bet the media even paid those Iraqis to show up as props in this picture game. What's next, the children let out of prison were figments of my imagination? Yup, you guys are independent--independent of reality. Keep up the work.

...this just got blown up:
 http://tinyurl.com/9emi

The simple fact that the statue is down, says it all. I don't care who did it, or who is standing around.

The tyranny in Iraq is over. But thanks for playing.

Thanks very people of the internet including the nyc.indymedia.org.

Now. Hopefully the people of the world shall not have been too "dumbed" down by American culture such as "Joe Millionaire" to understand and learn.

But. I know its too late for Americans. What about the rest of the world?

When has not an event like this not been staged.

Just because more invitations didn't get sent out doesn't make the event less significant.

Were you guys against the wall in Germany coming down?

That was a staged event also.

The real art in propaganda was reading the propaganda of the Iraqi information minister (Fisk) reporting at the speed of 145km an hour that the Saddam Airport was still secure.

Or better yet, the real Iraqi information minister coming up with is his one-liners and having captured Iraqi generals commenting on the minister's spin.

Give the sour grapes a rest. It was a Kodak moment that will have its place in history. Just like the wall coming down in Germany.

It is sure easy to comment - and criticize after the fact!
How about all the oppressed people who were being tortured, maimed, beaten, raped - and had NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH AS YOU DO!!
No - shame on you!

ANOTHER U.S. ZIONIST FAKE! Just like the holocaust fantasy and the moon landings. Think it's just a coincidence that Iraq and the "moon" photographs show so much dust and similar topography? Both were filmed on CIA / military bases deep in the Nevada desert.

this photo was taken *after* the statue went down.

www.msucollegedems.1hwy.com

there are some spelling mistakes but go to the forum on the bottom of the front page

israeliguy,

Your two photo comparisons using the sky's color as an attempt to discredit the article's photo prove absolutely nothing.

In one photo, you're taking a sample of the upper sky (blue), the other photo is of the horizon (grey).
Try comparing the Horizons: You'll find that they are both grey.

israeliguy, You are a fake.

So now we all realize that the scene was exaggerated and somewhat fake. Some people say.. "no big deal" or "what's the big problem with that". But don't you see.... since we know this was faked, and exaggerated.. we now know that most everything else the media has been telling us about Saddam was also exaggerated.

I'm not inplying that he was/is a saint nor model human being... however how many of you have actually read in detail about Saddam and his history, beliefs, learning, habits, personal interest, etc.. ? I recently did and what I read and saw was quite interesting. Has the American media showed America all the good he done for Iraq (keep in mind.. we are the ones who placed sanctions on his country. We blame him for starvation etc.. when America was blocking the entry of supplies to Iraq)! Have any of you seen or read about how he rebuild the city of Babalyon back to it's original form? How about similar things of interest and good works that he undertook? No.. only the bad is shown to us via the Media. Bagda is no dump! It's alarge modern city of 5 million with impressive structures (at least until we distroyed everything). What a waste!

the Chicago Tribune ran an article acknowledging that the numbers of "Iraqis" celbrating was extremely low and that American TV overplayed it and lied to us. Here is that link  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0304100317apr10,1,2372983.story

Seems you've been effectively Fisked over at Oxblog.

 http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2003_04_06_oxblog_archive.html#92482221

Thank you for playing. Sorry you lost. Please play again. Someday you may get SOMETHING right

Indymedia will lie like a dog anytime it suits its efforts to get its loser hands on some power. Loserfucks.

We need more t.v.and radio stations to get exposer. The problem is money.

Do you anti-war idiots feel powerless? Well you should. You can scream and yell all you want about propaganda but this war is proving George Bush correct. Do you gutless wonders still support a monster like Hussean? Shame on all of you. Your weak former-president, Clinton isn't half the man that Bush is.Thank God Clinton is gone and thank God for a real leader in office. It's your right to scream and yell in America, but what is so comforting is that you left-wingers no longer have any power. So cry all you want. The conservatives rule the day and what a great feeling it is.

oooh, geez, get a job , you tree-hugging anti-war morons! after all, why believe the obvious - that saddam's removal has been a gift to mankind regardless of what'd prompted it - when you can fry your brains silly into concocting fantastic conspiracy theories and off the wall alibis for your own undersized penises. peace, dude!

Amazing. The posts I've seen while perusing this site say more about the educational levels of our citizens in this country than anything else. If any of you are surprised at the propaganda we're spreading re the iraqui conflict, you are about as ignorant as they come. ALL governments use propaganda and disinformation to control their citzenry. What you ALL should be MUCH more fearful of is the attack on our constitutional liberties by the current administration, in the name of "safety" for our fellow countrymen. I'm ashamed at times to be associated with such an illiterate group of fellow citizens.

To all those who say "Of course not many people will come out because everyone is terrified of Saddam," that's crap.

In Iran the Shah's regime was just as Brutal as Saddam, the Sha's father even cooked a man alive for being a traitor. Yet, at the time of the revolution, millions of people came out to overthrow the Shah. That is what true revolution looks like. Andm, the Shah's regime was sponsored by the US at the time unlike this regime which has been brought down by American tanks. The people of Iraq did not want invasion or "liberation." They would choose Saddam Hussein before Bush/Blair any day of the week.

Americans were treated as liberators. You were wrong; get over it! And your paranoid fantasy about the toppling of the statute is easilly refuted:

 http://www.right-thinking.com/comments.php?id=P1118_0_1_0

What has happened to the left? As liberal Jeff Jarvis says:

"It got hijacked by an orthodoxy of offensiveness -- that is, by political correctness, which cares more about words than actions or people, which stifles freedom of expression rather than protecting it. It got shanghaied by a not-in-my-name selfishness. It got coopted by a haughty condescension. This is not the left-liberal-Democratic movement of the masses; this is the movement of the elite; this is the PBS left. This is not the movement of action but of inaction. This became the movement of no-no-ishness, wagging fingers and tsking tsks at the other side; it became about being against something rather than being for something. I don't know how this happened but I lament that it did."

 http://www.buzzmachine.com/archives/2003_04.html#003499

As a former liberal, I wash my hands of all of you.

The "propaganda" of this war is teaching me to TRUST my "gut"... The "marketers" of this media war campaign don't understand that "human beings" are outfitted with "hearts" and "guts" and "feelings" where-in much TRUTH lies... It's IMPOSSIBLE for the "fanciest"... "trickiest"... most "expensive" media campaigns to "fool" our "guts". If anything - this "trickery" achieves just the OPPOSITE... The "tom-foolery" has instilled in me to QUESTION... to QUESTION "EVERYTHING"!!!

... So...at least with those of us who look beyond the SURFACE... it's possible to come to REAL terms with the "FOG OF WAR"...

Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye renders the whole world blind."

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

Peace y'all...
~ Sherry ~

Lloyd George said that we always have to reserve the right to "bomb the niggers."

There's a REASON Tony Blaire is known in his own country as The Poodle -- he's the lapdog of the Americans.

Looks like the same thing applies to his journalists.

By justification to hate another.....the world will never heal - EVER if we continue to harbor hate for anyone...It is so unfortunate to me that indymedia and other sources of discrimination,,....calling it free speech do not see how it actually creates more of separation and not compassion and understanding...guidelines and structure helps, like when you bring up a child with guiding hands.

A greatly compassionate organization is Non-Violent Communication,  http://www.cnvc.org/main.htm (in where they manage to heal old tribal rifts and conflict among, counties, people and relationships). If we listen to what is the need of all.. the need to bash and hate is coming from a deeper wound....and pointing fingers will not free us, as we only then point more to our own self. When we point one finger at another, we have the other four bent ones in the directions facing our own self!

I propose that the Year of the Goat (Chinese Astrology) will be the Year where SCAPE-GOATING CEASES once and for all in our WORLD!

I'm pretty amazed at the shamelessness that I'm seeing here. The Left in this country has lost this debate. Every nay-saying scare tactic said has been disproven. Hundreds of thousands did NOT die. Thousands of our troops were NOT killed. We've found evidence of items the UN inspectors did NOT find previously.

You've been disproven on so many accounts, and you all still don't even have the decency to step up and admit it.

As a former liberal myself, it only becomes more apparent every day -- that liberalism, in its extreme, is a mental disorder.

'war no more', you're a numbnut.

Really ironic you should post such a photo under a name like that.
Substitute a picture of Clinton for the pic of Bush, and it would look like something one would expect out of a far right-winger (probably there ARE photoshopped pics of Clinton like that).

A far better "gift" would have been an image of Bush (And Ashcroft and Cheney and...) in handcuffs standing in front of the court at the Hague as a war criminal. Assassination and gagging, will not solve the problem because...

America is a nation of laws. Our government is BASED on laws. We are the only country in the world that if we passed the ERA, it would actually make a difference, because we might actually FOLLOW it. Japan has an ERA in their Constitution... right. Ask Japanese women if they even have the Pill yet let alone totally equal rights.

BushCroft is a threat to America because his/their policies play hob with the law and threaten the Constitution itself, the highest law of the land. It is better to use the Constitution and the law to bring him down. Less messy too.

A far better way to take aim at Bush is with persuasive media pieces of our own, such as:
 http://www.ericblumrich.com/PD.html

Hueys,
U.S.Army 85-90
Mother Rucker, AL &
Ft Polk, LA

"I do solemly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help me God." - U.S. Servicemember's Oath upon swearing in to the military (all branches)

All of you who think you have the right to talk about propaganda and all that shit should go fuck themselves. Were you there? Were you the ones taking the pictures? Do you even know anything about the holocaust?! You are all a bunch of attention seeking retards and I think you should go kill yourselves before your lack of brain cells produce some more so called "intellectual" shit.

All of you who think you have the right to talk about propaganda and all that shit should go fuck themselves. Were you there? Were you the ones taking the pictures? Do you even know anything about the holocaust?! You are all a bunch of attention seeking retards and I think you should go kill yourselves before your lack of brain cells produce some more so called "intellectual" shit.

Put the picture from this page side by side with this picture  http://www.right-thinking.com/images/uploads/statue_debunk.jpg, which was taken as the statue was being pulled down. The statue is long gone from the picture on this page, as are most of the people, because it was taken LATER, when the people were dragging the statue's remnants through town. If you zoom in or use the Magnifier feature to compare specific areas of the square, you'll see that in the "pulling-down" shot there are scores of people in an area that, on this page's photo only shows a handful left. That's because it's later in the day and they've left!

It goes to show the war mentality of the Bush regime in attempts to attain positive poll numbers!

The link I provided for the above message is broken. Use this one and scroll down, then click on the photo for a close-up:  http://www.right-thinking.com/.

Gee .. when I saw the statue falling, there were people from one end of the tan vehicle to the other. In yours, they barely reach one end. And how come it's so dark, almost like evening, when Saddam's statue was torn down in the middle of the bright day? And in the widely-publicized pictures, the big black statue is almost as large as the light column. Why is there no dark statue on the column in your photo?

Looks to me like your was several hours later, after the crowd dispersed.

yeah...
i think i saw one of those stealth black helicopters photographing the whole thing too.
geeeesh...
you lefties are wacko.

Some in here are mentioning the political parties and cursing out others who they feel are of the opposite party. That I can't figure out...and to me it seems to show a bit of stupidity on their part.
All you Pro-War Arab haters assume that others in this posting are of different political make-up. Personnaly I have almost alwasy voted republican.. I'm white, southern, rural and yes a NRA Member for many years. So in your views you would suppose that I am Pro-War and Pro-Bush. There is where your stereotyping is incorrect. I am against this war for several reasons: 1)The media created it! Also, the media has preached so much hate towards other religions and other countries that do/did not agree with us, thus showing who is running the media...The Jews. 2)Attacking others without justification is wrong! As many of my x-military friends have pointed out to me lately.. This is the only time they have ever seen the USA attack & go to war without reason! 3)When the great US democracy wipes out all others and rules the world completely.. thus the end of democracy will soon occur. Then you will have Socialism and or a Dictatorship! If you think that will never happen should this come to pass... then yes, you are quite niave!

I guess the fall of the Berlin Wall was faked too. Two implosions in 13 years - not bad at all. Why do pinkos love dictators so much? Castro - love him. Fascist Mullahs in Iran - love them. Do you ever see the left supporting the students in Iran - no. The left is worried about destabilizing the Middle East - duh,thats the whole idea!

put a chip in my brain!

Y'all are a RIOT! Hey, where is Elvis? I know that dude is still alive.

Attention KMart shoppers. We are having a blue light special on tinfoil on isle 13.

What amazes me about this whole thing is that with all the bullshit flying around nobody's opinion changes.

Those who support Bush and his cronies want to believe that it has all been worthwhile and that Iraqis are grateful for being liberated. It is amazing that I hear very little discussion of the fact that the American Government's reasons for entering Iraq changed several times throughout the process of justifying this war. Where were those weapons of mass distruction again? Oh no that's right the UN didn't find any (and neither have the invading military). How could I forget that the invasion was to liberate the people from the dictator that the US government helped to install all those years ago.

Meanwhile all who have opposed this invasion from the beginning do not see the fall of Saddam through such brutal means as much of a victory. Sure we know he is a murderous tirant but killing several thousand people to get rid of him seems a little warped. Not to mention the mess that has now been created. How many more thousands are now going to die in the ensuing chaos.
Liberation is great, but what is the reall price the Iraqi people are yet to pay?

The media coverage of recent events makes me sick to my stomach. And the masses are just lapping up all the propaganda thrown their way.

Is this supposed to make me support the "war"? Is this supposed to make me turn around and think, gee, look how great this all is? Is this supposed to make me think that all the innocent people that have died, that all of the death and destruction has been worth it because we toppled over a statue in an area that's mostly populated by the international media?

It's sickening. I can barely watch the news anymore. All this propaganda and false patriotism is making me nauseous.

I watched the whole statue episode on an unedited, live satellite dish feed. In fact, I happened to be watching before anyone arrived at the scene, as the statue is nearby one of the MANY stationary cameras in the city.

It was a group of Iraqis who began the process of defacing the statue. I don't know if their ultimate goal was to tear it down at first, but they used a sledge to obliterate the inscription on the front of the pedestal and fashioned a noose out of rope to put around the neck. At that point their attention shifted to the soldiers surrounding the roundabout. Again, I'm not a mindreader (apparently some on this board are psychic), so I can't say what their intentions were, but they willingly participated in the toppling of the statue.

In any case, I don't think it was "staged". Hyped beyond belief by the media, yes, but not staged. Media is in the hype business, hype is what people buy, even on this website.

And incidentally MODS, I don't care for having my comments edited out because they don't agree with your views. If you don't want messages on your board, don't have a message board.

I hear your a homosexual and your wife sucks the neighbours dick when your out. You are some fucked up racist cunt. We have your IP address and your next on our list. WaTCH YOUR BACK WANKER CAUSE YOUR ABOUT TO PAY A VISIT TO HELL.

The marines arrived in that square quite unexpectedly...even the journalists were shocked that they got through so quickly with little resistence.
There was no TV in Bagdhad..so news of the marine's presence got round by word of mouth. After 30 or so years of tyranny would you risk coming out within minutes of the marines arrival? Both these factors expalin the small number - 100 or so. AND there was still sniper fire going on!
What I saw was women and girls on the street - something so rare it made me gasp. What I saw was the Iraquis begging the marines to help THEM bring down the statue...a case of cooperation..I saw iraqui men kissing the marines.
I don't know what you lot were watching.

I'm not so particular about it. The statue is already fell. You all can be all wrong and all right about the sky thing. Come and help the Iraqis who will suffer from the war.

You dorks. Where is the statue? It's already been removed! It's no different than a big leftist love-in after the weed has been smoked.

HEy guys, when you get a break, check out the movie "Wag the Dog". I think you'll see the relevance.....Julie

And the Moon landing was faked, too. It is too bad that you folks have overmedicaded yourselves into a state of paranoia, and will stop at nothing in order not to admit what is so plain to see. To try and convince yourselves that Sadaam was a great guy, and that Bush is wrong no matter what, you will go to any lengths of self-deception and displays of ignorance.

Too bad....

Please remove your tinfoil hat and stop it with the lame conspiracy theories. I guess its easy to fake things when multiple TV stations are covering it form diffrent angles and its being broadcasted live on TV. When watching it live, you should see that almost all the people in the crowd were Iraquis. Also the crowd got bigger after that photo was taken.

Nice try. I'm open to all points of view, but this photo was taken after the statue was already down, possibly well after. Show it to me as the thing is falling and you might persuade me . . . I'm sure there's some exaggeration going on with the images of celebration, but why stoop to their level?

I was fooled by this photo into thinking that it was taken just after the statue feel. But, comparing the lighting and seeing the other photos it would appear that it was taken some time after the statue feel. It certainly doesn't show all the people in the other photos. This would incline me to believe that the pulling down of the statue was supported by the local people more than I originally thought.

My problem with this whole situation is what will happen in the long term. America has been known to have a very short attention span. Do we really care about democratization of Iraq? Six months ago who in America cared about that?

It is ok to remove the photo and admit a mistake. Either it is a fake or not, it doesn't make much of a difference. The real test is what happens in the next few months and years.

Holy moly.

It was 'staged'..

What do you think photo op is all about.. It was never reported that this toppling was done by local Iraqis. It doesn't matter. That the marines did it, and 'staged' it for the press is irrelevant. Basically IRRELEVANT to what this statue falling represents.

Clearly, this is media spin. Wow! What a shock.

Y'all are getting deep into a red herring. Y'all should read the Society of the Spectacle, to get a better handle on the role of media narratives as they work with coroporate power. To expect corporate media to be uncompromisingly engaged in truth, such that they would reject such a photo op is to seriously mis-read what is going on, and to dis-empower yourselves.

This was a flash-point. A great photo-op. And it spun. It worked well for the media giants, giving them great bytes to play over and over again, convienently bringing the viewer to climatic moment, just before the cross fade to an ad.


That is what they are always looking for -- great flashy, ad-friendly, dramatic photo/vid opps that support the american/international corporate regime!! Hello!!

This is red herring stuff for us, on the 'left', to get into.

What we should do is continually press how this emphasis on spectacle hides the truth. But, far MORE IMPORTANT is to make the links to the business of war..


And you anti-semites are ridiculous! Stupid (in the sense of bad judgement) for one. Stop wasting people's time with your hysteria. You nazis will not get power ever again! so shut up.

- watt

Is that the conservative viewpoint now? The Holocaust never happened? What the hell, Andy? And Israel was behind 9/11? I guess that's kind of accurate if you want to say that there are a lot of Muslims in the world who are extremely pissed off at the U.S. for supporting Israeli terrorism against Palestine. Oh wait, Israeli terror is counter-terror to Palestine's terror, and Palestine's terror is counter-terror to Israel's terror. Confused yet? Who started it? Who is right? We can't say, so we should have kept ourselves out of it. Now, we're paying for it.

As for the Holocaust, I'm sure that special effects were sophisticated enough in the 30s and 40s to pull off countless numbers of film reels and photos of fake concentration camps and massive piles of fake, dead, starved bodies. Oh yeah, and all those SS Officers and Gestapo were really Zionists working for Hitler. In fact, Hitler was a Zionist! Can we get any crazier? Get real, man!

As for the toppling of Saddam's statue, I don't know even know how to feel about it anymore. Sure, it was probably a propaganda coup organized by the Bush Administration, but let's not get too carried away and forget that propaganda works both ways. How can you really know for sure that any of the news you receive nowadays, whether it be mainstream, independent, or foreign, is actually telling the truth? There is no such thing as objective journalism anymore. I'd be willing to believe that this whole mess today is a farce, but again that might not be true either. So what do you do to counter all this suspect news? Go insane!

one picture is worth ten thousand lies. fiction as a cover for murder.

Who believed there were throngs of people at the event? I don't even remember hearing that there was. Just like I never believed the things that the press said about the war only lasting a week. No higher level military officials ever mentioned anything like that. The only references to such things come from "unnamed sources at the Pentagon" which generally mean the new custodian. Perhaps even some public relation lackey intern fresh out of high school but anyone believing that in the first place needs to go back to their special ed school for the lesson they missed on "reasoning and thinking".

The event itself still happened and I don't really consider it historic after you've seen it repeated in every city dozens of times. The press is always looking for iconic images and simplistic explanations to make their coverage of the war have meaning. I would say 95% of the press corps doesn't have the intelligence to gather useful stories from the war which will always result in our getting fluff like this. As long as the I can filter out useless reportage like this from entering my consciousness I am in no danger of being fooled...

Besides, the picture shown above has no context to relate it to how long after the statue was toppled so to use it to rant about "propaganda" gives it the tell-tale odor of more propaganda.

Nice opinion piece. That is all you have here, opinion. You shoot yourself in the foot when you push opinion as fact. Keep hobbling ..

Cris

Reagan and his pals were the ones who were making deals with the ayatollahs in Iran. Leftists don't love dictators unless they're the type who like to fall into lockstep political thought. By doing that, they've given up on freedom of thought which is part of the Left's "evil agenda." and when I say freedom of thought, I don't mean it the way that ultraconservatives do when they claim to be "free thinkers." Their idea of free thought is blaming the Jews for every thing that has happened in the world, especially the 9-11 attacks. If someone died of brain cancer, I bet they'd blame it on evil Jewish radio waves. (in case one of you David Duke or Matt Hale types thinks that is a good idea you never thought of, radio waves do not cause biological damage to cells.) How pathetic.

And as for the photo, I think probably more people would have been out to topple the statue if we hadn't, uh, you know, bombed, killed, injured, and scared the shit out of them. It definitely does not look like when the Berlin Wall was brought down, or when Ceaucescu was deposed in Romania, and you can't equate the fall of a worthless isolated dictator (no, the French and the liberals are not on his side, and I'm very glad he's gone. His politics were an Arab version of Hitler's National Socialism, featuring a lot of corporate cronyism that reminds me of the American government and its connections.) with the fall of the Soviet empire. All my happiness and well-wishing goes right now to the sort-of-liberated Iraqi people, and I hope the entire world has a lot of luck in solving this pig's breakfast we made for them, with all the rioting, looting, and people dying left and right from our bombs and and water-borne diseases. (We destroyed their basic utilities, not just in this war but in 12 years of on-and-off bombing. Before that we gave them weapons and support so they and Iran would be busy killing each other off.)

Where is the body. Saddam and Osama in Bermuda sipping martinis WHERE IS THE BODY?? Show us Saddam dead - not statues

George Bush is the Anti-Christ, and he's starting his war of evil.

Bughdad has witnessed such destrutions many times since the date it was first was planned by Abu Hanifa at the request of Al-Mansoor.Moutisimbillah & his family was killed by rolling in carpets. I also hate Saddam.However it is very strange that in Metropolis of 6 million only few dozens of the residents came out to demolish Saddam's statue.Since history repeats itself it is possible one day the statue of George Washington would be removed by generations to come.We must not forget if we sow seed of hatered its plant will always grow with speed of light.ssaa

why the topic in america "invation in iraq"
not "invation on iraq", why...

This meant, USA and its allied is big liar and only bullshit

You libs are pathetic. Keep believing your conspiracy theories

Below that is a long-shot in which you can see the whole of Fardus Square (conveniently located just opposite the Palestine Hotel where the international media are based)

WOW. CONVENIENTLY, LIKE AS IF WE DESIGNED THE FUCKING CITY. GIVE ME A BREAK.

MAYBE THE REASON WHY THEY DIDNT HAVE SO MANY IRAQIS IN THERE IS BECAUSE THEY MIGHT CAUSE A DISTURBANCE, AND BLOCK TRAFFIC, KINDA LIKE WHAT YOU PATHETIC MOTHERFUCKERS DO IN NEW YORK CITY, MAKING A FUCKING MESS.

GET A FUCKING LIFE, AND WHILE YOURE AT IT, A JOB, YOURE A SHAME TO THIS COUNTRY. IRAQ IS NOW FREE AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT YOU STUPID FUCKING LIBS!!!

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

god bless american people but curse us leader
long live saddam
if iraq was teroris cause attack? kuwait but why israel is a hero when attack palestine?
get real where the mass destruction?
courage leader is man that fight with his people not like bush.

This photo looks as unreliable as any I've seen in the mainstream media.

If you examine the photo closely you can see a puff of smoke from a shooter on the grassy knoll just as Kennedy is going by in his limo on the lower right.

You lefties are such a bunch of losers. Why not contribute to society rather than criticize it. You'll never get anywhere in life with the crapola being spewed on this website.

P.S. You're douchebags too.

Modern clergy and brainwashed Zionist puppets repeat the story that "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" Yet the 1939 World Almanac shows there were 15,688,259 Jews in the world. And still yet, nine years later the New York Times reports that there were then between 15,600,000 and 18,700,000 Jews in existence. If Hitler killed 6 million of them, then why was there no less in 1948 than there were in 1939 ? Furthermore; the same sources report the Jews in Germany in 1938, prior to the supposed killings, totaled only 500,000. If Germans killed 38% of all the Jews in the world, it must mean the 9,688,259 left begat 6-9 million children within nine years. It takes most cultures 100 years to double in size. Yet the Jews do it in nine ! And have never done it again since !

Just as the media used images after 9/11 of Arabs celebrating the tragedy as if it were a live feed, when in actuality it was from ten years before. Now we have images of "liberated" Iraqis to show there is progress. That these people who so hated us now welcome us with open arms. And we embrace them back with nuclear ones.

It may be all propoganda, but it's working. THe UN Human Rights Commission was suppose to have been addressing the matter of USA government promoted and supported, child trafficking last week. Despite overwhelming evidence, they have managed to get the issue buried and ignored, undoubtedly resulting in millions of dollars in campaign finance headed from the adoption industry to the Republican party and George Bush. Main stream media is also unwilling to report on this as well.

you anti-semite idiots, I want to slit your fascist throats. you have no balls, and your mouth is your rectum. laugh all you want you fuckers the USA rules the world and there's nothing you pigs can do about it.


i hope you die painfully.

The Dean of the Congress --
The West Virginian of the 20th Century

Senate Remarks by Robert C. Byrd

March 19, 2003

"The Arrogance of Power"

I believe in this beautiful country. I have studied its roots and gloried in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution. I have marveled at the wisdom of its founders and framers. Generation after generation of Americans has understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great Republic. I have been inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their strength.

But, today I weep for my country. I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.

Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand obedience or threaten recrimination. Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves. We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption which is understood by few and feared by many. We say that the United States has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of the globe which might be suspect in the war on terrorism. We assert that right without the sanction of any international body. As a result, the world has become a much more dangerous place.

We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance. We treat UN Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their heads from the carpet. Valuable alliances are split. After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe.

The case this Administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence. We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason. This is a war of choice.

There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11. The twin towers fell because a world-wide terrorist group, Al Qaeda, with cells in over 60 nations, struck at our wealth and our influence by turning our own planes into missiles, one of which would likely have slammed into the dome of this beautiful Capitol except for the brave sacrifice of the passengers on board.

The brutality seen on September 11th and in other terrorist attacks we have witnessed around the globe are the violent and desperate efforts by extremists to stop the daily encroachment of western values upon their cultures. That is what we fight. It is a force not confined to borders. It is a shadowy entity with many faces, many names, and many addresses.

But, this Administration has directed all of the anger, fear, and grief which emerged from the ashes of the twin towers and the twisted metal of the Pentagon towards a tangible villain, one we can see and hate and attack. And villain he is. But, he is the wrong villain. And this is the wrong war. If we attack Saddam Hussein, we will probably drive him from power. But, the zeal of our friends to assist our global war on terrorism may have already taken flight.

The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to "orange alert." There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions unanswered. How long will we be in Iraq? What will be the cost? What is the ultimate mission? How great is the danger at home? A pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq.

What is happening to this country? When did we become a nation which ignores and berates our friends? When did we decide to risk undermining international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire approach to using our awesome military might? How can we abandon diplomatic efforts when the turmoil in the world cries out for diplomacy?

Why can this President not seem to see that America's true power lies not in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire?

War appears inevitable. But, I continue to hope that the cloud will lift. Perhaps Saddam will yet turn tail and run. Perhaps reason will somehow still prevail. I along with millions of Americans will pray for the safety of our troops, for the innocent civilians in Iraq, and for the security of our homeland. May God continue to bless the United States of America in the troubled days ahead, and may we somehow recapture the vision which for the present eludes us.

Of course, everyone with just a driblet of common sense would know that all good Iraqis were not at the square, for then they would miss out on the looting. Who wants to see a statue of "le-bitch" going down when you can steal a door and light bulbs from his house.

....uh....or has the media also been manipulating how many looters there are. Perhaps just a coup to make the iraqi military drop their uniforms and head off on a stealing spree ?

Seriously, you folks at indymediawhores are a pack of foolish zealots.

Mi you uneducated idiot

Fasism is the marrage of government and corporate interests.

It's the driving force behind the U.S. military machine.

Notice the cars stopped on the road in the upper right corner. I would say since most of the men I saw walked to the site and the cars appeared later you are barking up the tree.

You anti-semite idiots are the scum of the earth. Too bad Saddam didn't use mustard gas on you...

That photo came straight from the Iraqi Information Minister didn't it???

Congratulations on this. Please try to get it further publicised.

(article 1)Well, nothing more to say
This is how Iraqi's are breathing th fresh air of freedom

(article 2)Well, nothing more to say
This is how Iraqi's are breathing th fresh air of freedom

I noted that when Iraq/Baghdad "liberated", not many people in population centers. Unlike the liberation of Europe 50 years ago.... or even Saigon by NVA.
Neither like when the regime changes in Manila 1986 or Jakarta 1998

It is obvious and historically logic that Americans have taken control and they now decide what to show and how to show it.
It has been this way for all time men have existed, and instead of whining about it, we should rather accept it and meet this kinds of pictures with the scepticism they aquire without being offended. The real sad thing here is, that some people actually believe what they hear now a days.

. . . has any pictures of the guys who went head first into Saddam's industrial grade plastic shredder?

Yep, looks like a popular uprising. Must be atleast 100 Iraqis there. Now what's the population of Baghdad again?
5 million... Oppps.
Must be a Shiite private party.

Yes, andy this propaganda is bad, perhaps the picutre of that little boy is propaganda, and the Zionists are definetly in the wrong in Israel, but to say that the holocaust did not happen is just pure ignorance. I know people who lived it and experianced it, and you saying that just rubs salt in their alreay painful wounds. It is people like you give a bad name to peace movements, and make people not want to listen to the plea's from those in pain in this part of the world. To deny history is to re-live it, that is what the Americans are doing, and that is what you are doing. You are a hypocrite.

Fcuk off you stupid Americans bastards, and not forgetting the yours truly fucking Christians...and also not to forgot the god damn jewish assholes.. god bless hitler for killing you all!! you have no right to live in this world! that for sure, or else Hitler would not kill you right?... HahHahha.. and as for the American people, wait untill the time comes when Saddam Hussien will emarge as the real power of the muslim world... God Is Great! Hail Saddam!
Fucking American and Jewish Idiots.... don't you guys ever think? Oh .. maybe after 2000 years of running away with no where to go, or to put in in another way, you've never had a homeland..what a pitty... Damn you Fucking Jews! Damn You!

Dear Friend,

How can you clime victory by breaking a piece of Arts?

More Western/US photographers and TV camers than scum Iraqis brought by the Nazis.


Saddam was 2 blocks away giving speech to the Iraqi people.

Resistance against new nazism

GeGe

The following indymedia web site also has photos positively identifying at least one of the people in this small crowd of 150 to 200 as part of the contingent of pro-US expatriate Iraqis flown into Iraq by the US three days before. Also, there are five million people in Baghdad. Where are they? Given what is happening now in Baghdad, Mosul, Nasiriyah and other places in Iraq--large anti-US demonstrations (at least 15 anti-US protestors shot dead by US troops in Mosul, and 60 to 100 wounded); a Shi'ite boycott of the US government formation meeting; and both Shi'ites and Sunnis protesting the US plan to divide Iraq into three parts, and demanding that the US leave--I think the US forces in Baghdad didn't dare try to assemble a large crowd, which might well have turned from toppling Saddam's statue to attacking the US.

14 journalists have died in Iraq, at least four of them directly murdered by the US, which opened fire on the journalists' hotel and blew away Reuters' corner suite, and bombed Al-jazeera's office--days before the statue incident. Some journalists may have been reluctant to expose this US media farce.

 http://nc.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/4467_comment.php

For those who are unconvinced about the validity of the photos above, you can see more photos at:

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

You can also read an eyewitness account of the toppling at:

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3024.htm

NEVILLE WATSON, PEACE ACTIVIST: "... the [t.v.] toppling of the statue of Saddam and I can hardly believe it was the same one that I saw, because it happened at only about 300m from where I was and it was a very small crowd. The rest of the square was almost empty, and when we inquired as to where the crowd came from, it was from Saddam City. In other words, it was a rent-a-crowd. Now, that piece of television has been played over and over again..."

One reservation: it seems curious that, although we have pictures of before and after the toppling, no wide-angle (ie. the square and the crowd) shots exist of the actual toppling itself.

Finally, it's interesting to note how many of the pro-war crowd on the board descend into personal insults and threats of violence to debate their position. What's the matter, no facts, no analysis to back up your arguments? Or have you simply done away with civilized discourse altogether?

WE can see by this that all the media are a little bit biased, even al-Jazeera who were there din't show that tiny number of people, they showed it as a big number of mobs who were happy to kill the statue of that dictator.
Mass media is playing a dirty roll in this rat race for oil, we have to be patiant next time in order to make th correct judgement, becasue it tend to be that only after several weeks we can see the correct version of truth, only when the big players forget about some point and go to achieve the next goal of thier big game.

 http://votetoimpeach.com

Its obvious you guys are fucking liars and that your photo was taken way after the toppling of the statute. The photo at this link proves it  http://www.right-thinking.com/comments.php?id=P1118_0_1_0 . I estimate at least 200 iraqis which is way more then a dozen and isn't the same as at most 200.

a dozen or 200, it doesn't really matter in a city of 5.5 million. Even so, I rememeber when they blew up the Sands Hotel on Vegas and 100s upon 100s were ther to see in go. People, no matter where they are and what there beliefs are like to break stuff and see stuff blown up. I would argue that that is why many young man were there to see the statue brought down, oh yaeh, and that fact that they don't have any jobs now since the coalition basicaly brought their ecomomy to a stand still. One last thing, regime removal is not the same thing as regime change.

you're an idiot.

Which proves what??? That the statue didn't fall, wasn't witness by Iraqi's, didn't need to come down? Give me a freakin break. I could care less if 2 people were watching it or 200....are you now going to tell us that the film of the people beating it with shoes and riding it in the street was "conveniently located" as well. Is this all you spend your time doing...dredging up non-stories? Pathetic.

Just to remind you.
When this picture was taken. U.S.-troops were still fighting a guerilla-war in the streets of Baghdad. I do not blame those who did not get out of there safe shelters to see the beheading of the dictator. Would you risk your life???

I guess you'd have to put this in the same category as the Medicare scare and school lunch scare. When someone threatens a sacred cow, just trot out out people stating that they don't want to eat cat food, and kids saying that they don't want to starve at school. And voila, the govt funding is restored. Never mind that 70% of taxpayer money is wasted by the govt and that goods and services would be cheaper if the govt weren't involved. Geez. Propaganda everywhere.

You know, you website and websites like yours serve a purpose, and you actually say somethings that make sense. I agree with many of your political views. I've watched the toppling of the statue many times on TV, and I know that this is NOT a photo of the toppling moment. No "narrow field of view" camera could create the "optical illusion" that was shown on TV. I am pursuing my PhD in Optical Sciences, so my opinion on this has some credibility. Do us and yourselves a favor, don't ruin you credibility by being ridiculous.

I'm really concerned and affronted by Andy's 4/9/03 posting saying that media was "duped" into believing "the Holocaust actually happened."

>Think about how effective a picture like this was in duping >mainstream media that the Holocaust actually happened.

And I am even more concerned and affronted that Andy suggests that "a Zionist state" "is behind 9/11."

>Now we have a Zionist state that is behind 9/11...what't
>will they do next?

I am anti-imperialist. I am anti-Zionist (favoring a secular one-state "solution" for Palestine/ Israel -- not an apartheid two-state solution). And I am Jewish and unwilling to accept the same old Jew-blaming.

Anti-Judaism (more commonly known as "anti-Semitism") works like this in a nutshell: Imperialist elites oppress workers, Jew and gentile alike -- then, to prevent workers from coming together to organize and revolt, elites lie to gentile workers and blame the atrocities of imperialism on "the Jews" instead of on imperialism. Then, too often, gentile workers (backed by elites), target their rage against Jews, instead of imperial elites (of which, sadly, SOME but not ALL Jews are.) The end result: the people are divided, elites and the system grind on.

I'm tired of the bald-facedly anti-Jew stories of "the Evil Mastermind Jew" who controls those who control Empire. For all our sakes and all our struggles, stop believing the imperialist lies about Jews.

And get Israel the fuck out of the "Occupied Territories." That means pre-1947 lines, people -- no more apartheid rule -- it's time for Jews and other Semitic peoples to work together, live together, and dismantle this fucking imperial system. Free free Palestine.

peace,
Eric

happy to find such a site! cant read everything though.just read some idiot saying its ok for iraqis to shed thier blood,as a cheap price for freedom, just as her/his ancestors shed some blood for thier freedom.god!! who are you..or who is bush to deciede that iraqis have to die to achieve 'freedom'??if your ancestors died..that was thier own choice..maybe.you cant choose for others. you cant say 'its ok' to let few 100s die. more than 1500 bombs were launched on iraq..imagine the number of deaths cause by this. imagine the distruction that happened there..and will have its signs for decades to come. i cant believe how people[some americans] can be fooled by media..or some lies..saying this war is good. how can any war be good?? how can you see people dying and say 'its ok' 'c'est la vie' !!??? obviously all those pro-war are either anti arabs..or anti human..or simply some dumb selfish people who think by having this war..they are protecting themselves from the 'arabs' evil. more evil will come as long as more blood is shed. those children who lost their parents..or houses..or their legs or arms..will grow up one day..imagine what they will think... [thanks america???] i dont think so. and you know what..i cant really blame him for doing whatever he will do..or at least i cant blame him alone. he is a victim. victim of bush and his likes. victim of sharon..of this unfair evil world. and what makes it more evil and bitter is there are people applauding and supporting bush..blair..sharon.. and even saddam. well..last thing i will say: maybe we should disarm usa..not iraq! by the way..where are these weapons iraq has???

(article 1)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

(article 2)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

(article 3)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

(article 4)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

(article 5)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

(article 6)well guys..to end this discussion about the statue.. first..its so clear that only few iraqis were there for the toppling of the statue..there are millions living in this city-at least before the army got into the country- so where are those 'happy' iraqis?? saying its ok to stage it..or make a propaganda out of the event..is nonsense..if the iraqis were really gathering and celebrating the toppling of the statue..the media wouldnt have to exagerate. here are few pics to prove my point. in some of the pics..the statue is still there..but only 10 or 15 men gathering around..the square is empty..i guess if there were 100s as said..there wouldnt be any empty space in the square.

so colonel Decamp said he had no choice but to shhot back..cause his soldiers were in danger-thus killing the journalists in the hotel...!!!!!! well..so he thought his soldiers' life was more valuable than the jouranlists'???? and who asked the soldiers to risk their life there in the first place??? they went to war..they knew they were going to get shot at!! so..face it..DIE mother fuckers!! he is sorry for the deaths he caused??? oh so human!! he has a tender heart it seems! faggot! i cant believe bush and all these criminals are free..and there are people looking at them as heros !! where are we fucken going?? we are worse than animals! we are the worst thing that ever happened to humanity..the worst thing that happened on earth.

maybe the reason there are no iraqis in the photos, is these few iraqis were the only survivals from the bombing of the city??

we could all see that there were only a few iraqis there, what the smarter ones saw was how the media is in bed with karl rove and this administration. i personally lost all admiration for all 3 networks. in fact i might just as well throw out my television until bush is gone from office. however, i think it just might take an army to get him out of the white house where he feels he belongs like some kind of king.

strange, but for the pro-war's..whoever is against the war..or says its a crime is either a fucken 'Lib' or a dumb french!! or just a stupid arab..or maybe even a muslim terrorist!! so if you are unlike those pro war's...you must be dumb whatever your nationality or your believes are. well, thats what Bush and his people believe! 'if you are against the war, then you are an enemy. if you are not with us..you are against us.' long live Bush..death to anyone else -especially if they are arabs..or french] boycott the french products!! free iraqis..send them to heaven. fight terrorism..shoot everyone down..till there s no one left but us. [says USA] viva america.

LMAO!! Sorry, as a high school student I find this simply amazing and silly. Of course something like this would be accomplished in America... if not here, then where in the world wouuld we find something so perverse? I'd be disgusted, tell you the truth, but I'm simply too busy laughing my a$$ off. Honestly. Just think of the vast spaces in which you can find information like this whilst attempting to finally finish World History homework that is overdue by three weeks... which is how I do all my work... ohh lordie, this is just too much! I think I'll stop now... heheheheheh BWAHAHAHHA OMG THIS IS SO FUNNY --ow, ok I'll stop now..

Looking at the picture, I do not see "most" of the crowd around the statue as being US troops.

For that matter, I see fewer than ten military vehicles.

Your article admits that "at most" 200 Iraqis were involved --- I watched the toppling via CNN as it occurred, and they reported "hundreds" of Iraqis in the square. That guesstimated figure, according to your article, is indeed accurate. In point of fact, "dozens" would not be accurate since the term would be outmoded at 144 --- a dozen dozen.

Regardless, the footage clearly shown on American television did not suggest, or claim, that the crowd was larger than seen in the actual photo. I was never "fooled" into thinking that more than a couple of hundred Iraqis were involved in the toppling.

I ALSO note that the toppling began with the Iraqis themselves trying to bring the statue down --- the picture you have presented was taken hours after the toppling attempts began (in fact, you are showing the situation as it was mere minutes before the statue came down, as noted by the engineering vehicle already hooked up to the statue).

When things began, they were aired live, and no US personnel or equipment were involved. Iraqis were themselves hammering at the statue, striking it with whatever they could, including large sledgehammers applied to the base.

Your claim of propaganda is, itself, pure propaganda.

Seems to me the photos were taken at 2 different times of day. The digital quality of the 'wide' shot doesn't allow for up close viewing. But the sun is not on the columns as it is in the close up photo.
In any case, who cares? Americans bought into the whole Bush 'ball of wax' you're stuck with him, and guess what? He's gonna be here another 4 years. By the time he's done f**king up America you'll wish Monica Lewinsky was still in the oval office getting screwed instead of Americans.

This shows nothing, how do we know when this picture was taken

So, nobody really knows